Lucifer 323 + 324 "Quintessential Deckerstar" & "A Devil of My Word"

“Quintessential Deckerstar” & “Devil of My Word” are so packed full of goodness to unpack we had to make notes for our conversation to make sure we didn’t miss anything. 

When it comes to storytelling, these episodes provide some deeply satisfying (and tear-jerking) character development, especially for Dan (Kevin Alejandro), Charlotte (Tricia Helfer), and Maze (Lesley-Ann Brandt). When it comes to performance, they absolutely convince us that Tom Ellis actually has wings which can stop bullets, but only with great pain to their owner. And when it comes to female characters’ badassery, these two episodes deliver over and over again with Charlotte, Chloe (Lauren German), Maze, and Ella (Aimee Garcia). 

In keeping with our own fascinations, we spend some time talking about mental health and cosmological implications of the storytelling. For the former, we note the comfort these episodes can provide when Lucifer’s devilishness is seen as an allegory for mental illness, truama, or other circumstances one might want to hide or be ashamed of. For the cosmology, we question the veracity of even hardened criminals opening fire on a literal angel and double down on our own shared head cannon that there are ways for Hell to hold on to souls that caused harm and acted badly even when those individuals do not feel guilt about their actions. 

Tracie was recovering from a chest cold, and never did remember the final thought she mentioned.

CW: discussion of gendered violence (compliant with that depicted in the show), including a serial abuser holding a knife to his girlfriend’s throat. 

Mentioned in this episode
Mr. Snuffalupagus (who everyone can see now)

Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music. 

Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah, the plot which they overthink.

Speaker 2: 0:23

I feel the same way.

Speaker 3: 0:25

Hey y'all. I'm here with my sister, emily Guy Berkin, who does not use a hyphen. And I'm here with my sister, tracy Guy Decker, who does use a hyphen, and together we are Lightbringers where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show. And you bet your ass, we are overthinking it. That's your sweet Pippi. We are so gonna overthink it today. These are some juicy, juicy episodes.

Speaker 2: 0:51

Oh they're, they're thick. Yeah, we just spent like almost 15 minutes planning out what we're gonna say. I think it was more like 20.

Speaker 3: 0:57

Yeah, yeah, so today we're talking about a 323 and 324 quintessential Decker star and a devil of my word. And for those of you watching, usually like we both watch and then we get on and we just kind of have an unscripted conversation. We're still unscripted, but we did take some time to make sure that we I actually took notes to make sure that we don't forget anything because there's so much.

Speaker 2: 1:21

So much, so good, so much. You just want to suck the marrow out of the bone of these episodes because they're so good, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 1:30

So usually we just kind of like see where the conversation takes us and more or less stay one episode to the other. I think we're going to treat these two as a whole and focus on a couple on the on characters, right, like that's how we just laid it out when we were talking.

Speaker 2: 1:45

So I actually think maybe Do you want to start with Charlotte? Yeah, I think maybe I do. I do too. Yeah, I feel her arc in just one of these two episodes because every time I rewatch I forget that she's not here.

Speaker 2: 2:03

In Devil of my Word.

Speaker 2: 2:06

I, like you know, I just I forget that that happens early on and because her, her shadow is cast such a long or she casts such a long shadow over a devil of my word.

Speaker 2: 2:19

And we were texting each other back and forth as we were watching these episodes and one of the things that we were talking about was when she was sitting on the bench at the end of Quintessential Decker Star, overlooking Los Angeles, like this is the closest to heaven and a menadil is comforting her, even though he has just realized recently how little he knows, and saying like she's saying like it's too little, too late, even though we have seen her do this incredible thing in bringing a serial abuser to justice and protecting a young woman who has already been harmed by him. And she is so badass in all of this. So when they get them the information from Richard's and Wheeler Wheeler and Richard's old firm, which, with the return of Dr Kane and and DB Woodside, we're in that hell out of that super boy, that man. Yeah, I mean like ZZ Top was onto something. Every girl crazy about a sharp dressed man.

Speaker 2: 3:27

He looks so good in that Sharp dressed man is DB Woodside, yeah, but what's amazing about that moment is, well, for one thing, she is okay with appearing insane which is her unstable.

Speaker 3: 3:43

That's her biggest fear, biggest fear.

Speaker 2: 3:46

And she's also giving her former lover because if you remember, Ben Wheeler was was her lover right when the goddess took over her body. She's giving him good advice. It's something she knows he's not going to hear. She's saying that there are consequences for what you're doing here. Please know that there are consequences and please start making changes before it's too late. And that's actually really good advice that I know Ben Wheeler is incapable of hearing, but the fact that she used that as her distraction is also like compassionate and badass.

Speaker 3: 4:28

Yeah, yeah, because it could have been other ways. She could have just yelled it. There are so many things.

Speaker 2: 4:33

Yeah, she could have just yelled at him, called a name.

Speaker 3: 4:35

I miss you baby.

Speaker 2: 4:36

Yeah, like there are so many things that she could have done with that distraction and they could have been eco preserving ways that she could have used that distraction? She did not. She went for what was going to cause a scene and what was going to get information out there. So even if Ben Wheeler didn't hear it, everyone in the office heard it.

Speaker 2: 4:56

And that's another thing, even if she can't get through to him. I mean, it's the reason why I sometimes argue with people on the internet. It's not for the person I'm arguing with, right, the person who are listening, right, right.

Speaker 3: 5:05

Or lurking and watching.

Speaker 2: 5:07

That's amazing. And then when she confronts Forrest Clay, that's his name, right? Yeah, forrest Clay, and I can't, he didn't spell it that way. But first name Forrest. I'm just like your name for the KKK Grand Wizard. Is that what your name is? Cause if you don't know anything about Forrest, who is the reason why Forrest Gump is named Forrest, which anyway. So when she confronts him, like she is like ice in her veins, and even when he gets his current girlfriend, mia, like with the knife to her throat, she's scared for Mia but she continues to maintain that calm and it's like that's all that type A success was building. To that moment it feels like and I just, god, I want to be, I want to be Charlotte Richard, I want to grow up in that episode you know, I don't want to die at the end and even the fact that the reason she dies is because she jumps in front of a menadil, because, not because he's an angel, not because he's God's son, but because he's her friend.

Speaker 1: 6:20

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:21

Yeah, because they have a real connection Right and she doesn't want something bad to happen to him and I'm tearing up.

Speaker 3: 6:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The whole death scene is really, is really. I cried watching it again even though it was coming Like like Trisha Helfer did an amazing job in that like sort of the pain and the whatever and the fear and the don't leave me, oh my God. Yeah, the one like thing that I'm overthinking is that I think the angle that she intercepted like there would have been an exit wound and a menadil still would have taken a bullet I think Maybe they were far enough. I don't know, maybe Pierce was far enough away. I don't, I don't actually know a whole lot about ballistics, I just like or anything. But I just, unfortunately, just from reading the news you know that you know sometimes, like the teacher who tried to shield their students and the students still, you know like those things, unfortunately, I know from just reading the news. So anyway, I'm willing to give it, because it was important storytelling moment that she took the bullet for bullets for him. But I did have an overthinking moment with it, like right there.

Speaker 2: 7:39

So there is one thing that I also want to mention about that scene before Pierce shows up is when she's saying like, yes, we got Forrest Clay, but it's too little, too late. He hurt all of those other women and I got goosebumps when a menadil said but he's never going to hurt another person again and you are responsible for that.

Speaker 2: 8:03

You are responsible for making sure that he can't hurt anyone ever again, and we can't ask for more than that. And that gets a little bit into like we talk a lot about the parallels with the good place. One of my favorite moments in the good place is when they quote oh gosh, is it Tolstoy? He's like the only time we have is now. It's the only time we have power.

Speaker 2: 8:25

I'm excited but it's, it's Russian. Now is the only time that matters, it's the only time we have any power and I, like, I really appreciate that because, like, it is counterproductive not useless counterproductive to ruminate on what happened in the past or worry about what's coming in the future. Just in the now, with the information you have now, with the abilities you have now, doing what you can to make things right is all that we can ask of ourselves or anyone else and I got like literally like goosebumps, like you're standing up on my arms, because I was just like I need to hear this.

Speaker 2: 9:08

I love this message, particularly since I can completely comprehend Charlotte's overwhelm and she's not overwhelmed at her own prospects of going to hell, it's more, she's thinking about all those women who were hurt in between, when Joanne Foley was killed and now and then also, like I'm imagining, like the, the guy who went down for Joanne Foley's death. Oh my God, his story is heartbreaking, yeah.

Speaker 3: 9:37

You know I also was moved by that exchange and I actually want to draw out specifically that Menendiel didn't just say he won't hurt anyone else, he said he won't hurt another woman. And the gendered piece of it actually feels significant to me because the way that this villain was portrayed was very much a gendered, misogynist, sexist. It was misogyny specifically in his, in his villainy. You know, not just villainy, but specifically gendered and misogynistic. And so the fact that Menendiel actually named it that way, that he won't hurt another woman, because you did that Like for me at least that actually mattered.

Speaker 2: 10:26

It does. It also kind of hits with something. There are times when there are problems that we need to face that I feel like certain people are uniquely suited to, and Charlotte is uniquely suited to this.

Speaker 3: 10:41

Yep as a very powerful woman who has sort of in typical you know, in typical societal standards sort of male energy with the power that she commands. So, yeah, I agree, I agree I'm going to move us along because I know we have a hard stop and we have a lot of things to talk about.

Speaker 2: 11:03

There's so much to talk about. Okay, should we talk about Lucifer and Chloe next?

Speaker 3: 11:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 11:08

Yeah, so those are often the things that I think people remember about these episodes.

Speaker 3: 11:14

Definitely, yeah, yeah. So I think, as we've said before, like in the rewatch, with the savoring, like noticing different things, the creepiness of him trying to recreate their greatest hits like really came through more strongly for me in this more savoring of these episodes, like it was weird and cute and quirky.

Speaker 2: 11:35

In my memory it's very little cute about it in this rewatch, it's just the only one that doesn't make me like and even like the first watch, because I'm, if anyone is ever going to die of embarrassment, if embarrassment is ever going to be a fatality, that will be me. And the only one that I don't feel that way about is when he's playing piano, as the only one where I'm just like okay, that's kind of cute, like you know, recreating that everything else is like oh, oh, please stop, it hurts, stop, stop, stop.

Speaker 3: 12:08

Yeah, yeah, I actually was grateful for Trixie, for Trixie's voice to be like, yeah, mom's right, this is weird, it's not fun. It's not fun, like that was. I was grateful for her voice there. And then, in terms of like their interaction, like we see some important realizations from each of them in these two, right, and Chloe says out loud I said yes because of Lucifer, I said yes to Pierce because of Lucifer and I also said no because of Lucifer, like saying that out loud, like we've seen her desire him, want more. We have seen that.

Speaker 3: 12:44

But it's been something that she seems to have been afraid to actually speak out loud, I think in the past, but she does say it in this episode, which I think is really interesting and significant and powerful, given the totality of these two episodes. And then the realization that he has when he shows up at the scene at Forest Clay's house and says to her like you caught two killers and it didn't have my help, which means you have chosen me because you don't need me. Yeah, which is just exactly the right kind of pathos Just absolutely melt, just puddle. Yes, completely.

Speaker 2: 13:29

And it's puddle. The other thing that I found myself thinking about was when he says I can't show you, so all I can do is tell you I am the devil. And, like you know, she doesn't believe him, but she hears him and the immediate acceptance.

Speaker 3: 13:50

The ending not to me, with her hand on his cheek, allows him to stop arguing with her right Cause there's been this like I feel, like where he started, I need to tell you. And then you know, like I feel like there could easily have been like no, no, really no, you have to believe me. But when she says not to me, not to me, yeah, and then with her hand on his cheek, it just I don't know, it just softens it and allows it to be true, even though it is also true that he's the devil. Like I don't know, there was something really just so sweet.

Speaker 2: 14:29

It reminded me again of how I feel like, intentionally and unintentionally, the show plays with the idea of him, of him being the devil, as a metaphor for mental illness, like if he were to like, trying to like look, I'm bad news, I'm like, you know, you don't want to get involved with me because I'm schizophrenic or I'm bipolar. Just for her, or anything like that, I'm not an okay person. And she says not to me, you know, and that's that kind of acceptance is just, is lovely and exactly what you would want to see from someone who reveals a trauma, whether it's mental illness or like there. I have known individuals who have experienced serious trauma, particularly as children, who internalize it as and that means I'm bad, and so to be able to say like this doesn't change anything. You are who you are to me and that's just, it's lovely.

Speaker 2: 15:31

And I think part of the reason why, you see, I see on Reddit a lot of people talking about how, like this show got me through serious depression and like this show helped me figure out ways to accept myself. And I'm like, of course it did. It's amazing, and that scene is one of the things that's so poignant about it is that well, I mean. First of all, there's Tom Ellis, who we can never get enough of how good an actor he is, but he can't show her his true face, as in his devil face. But he is showing her his true face emotionally.

Speaker 3: 16:08

Yeah yeah, yeah, you know I didn't think of this before. This is not in my notes. But the other thing that's kind of interesting about that scene, when she says, not like she's like wearing crazy clothes because she's been up for two days, and like she's just like just there's something wild and like atypical about her energy in that moment too, like thinking about mental illness or things that we sort of trauma or things that we don't share. She is also in a wild state. In a way she's working through it. She just caught another bad guy, but she's in a totally wild state. They made sure we saw that with the multiple jackets that don't make any sense together in the hair and whatever.

Speaker 2: 16:53

Well, that was something I noticed because, well, I noticed ponytails a lot because I'm always trying for that slick ponytail where it's not so tight that I feel like it looks like I'm a bunhead and trying to dance, but slick, so it's not like Bernie Sanders, like tendrils coming out. I noticed her hair quite a bit and that's very much shows like, okay, I just pulled it back and something and got it. Then the next episode you see her when she's completely in control. Her hair is tied back.

Speaker 3: 17:25

She's back in her uniform of skinny jeans and a shell and a jacket.

Speaker 1: 17:30

Her hair is yeah.

Speaker 3: 17:33

Anyway, that was like I didn't see that on the way. Also, when she's back in her uniform not literal she also says enough with the metaphors, even though she was just so open about them. We're seeing their clues of how she's going to react, or her mental state and openness. Then that leads into my most rewatch scene of the entire six seasons. I have to remind myself that they were in front of a green screen, I know.

Speaker 2: 18:08

Let's say what the scene is in case anyone's confused.

Speaker 3: 18:10

Tom Ellis does not get back have wings.

Speaker 2: 18:13

It's very painfully being shot.

Speaker 3: 18:15

It's being painfully shot yeah, it's just so good, so convenient, that the bullet knocked Chloe out Again. She conveniently is like it's sort of like snuff a lot against me straight when we were kids. I know the grown-ups see him now, but when we were kids nobody could see him.

Speaker 2: 18:38

Nobody saw him, except for Big Bird. Okay, okay, I have to okay. What happened to the bullet? Did her bullet?

Speaker 3: 18:47

necklace, stop the bullet. No, she was wearing Kevlar, she was.

Speaker 2: 18:52

Okay, that wasn't clear to me.

Speaker 3: 18:53

Yeah, when he's like he sort of goes to touch the bullet and there's no blood and she pulls her blouse down. She's wearing Kevlar and the bullet the bullet's in the, which is a little bit unbelievable. I went to high school with the woman who is now the chief of police of Baltimore County, and so there were.

Speaker 2: 19:11

I represent.

Speaker 3: 19:13

She's pretty awesome. She is pretty awesome, and so there were, and she's like four feet tall and like a badass. She's a little taller than that but she is a badass. But anyway she can't we. We ran into each other professionally while I was working at the museum. She was still in Baltimore city and she was wearing a bullet per vest under her, you know, like button, white button, men's style shirt, and like I knew she was wearing a vest, Cause it's like and that's that's like.

Speaker 2: 19:43

As many times as I've seen that scene, I've never understood what stopped the bullet cause it doesn't look. It's not clear to me that that's Kevlar.

Speaker 3: 19:49

So and that's meant. I think maybe there is body armor that's less bulky than what my, what my former high school classmate, was wearing that day. But I think that that's one of those things I just have to like just go with it, trace, just go with it. Just go with it, because I but let's talk about that scene. Yeah, yeah, that scene.

Speaker 3: 20:12

So, like badass, chloe Stand in front of the you're going to have to shoot me yeah, I don't want to die and I can't before I stop you and then shoot him, like God bless, with, like you know, 15, 20 guys with guns pointed at them. Amazing, amazing, she's amazing. And then this this is an overthinking moment that, like still bothers me to this day the wings come out to protect and all those goons continue to shoot at the angel, like they're looking at right, like, and way back in the beginning we saw that the like, the wings like, made people go crazy because it was proof of divinity and we've I've done some, you know, mental furniture rearranging. Those wings came directly from God, these were self actualized, so that's maybe why they're not quite as powerful, but still there's no hesitation Like just oh, skinny, let's just have a hard time, like even these, like hardened criminals, wouldn't be like uh boss, maybe we shouldn't shoot an angel, I don't know.

Speaker 2: 21:21

Well, he, he does it. One point says go on, shoot Like, he does like he says finish it.

Speaker 3: 21:27

That's before the wings have come out. Oh, okay, that's when the bullets have been exchanged between Pierce and Chloe and she falls back and Lucifer's holding her. He's like how is this happening? This can't be happening. Lucifer says that and Pierce says finish it.

Speaker 3: 21:46

Well, he's like down stairs and then the wings come out to protect her and I just, I don't know. It bothers me Although although on this rewatch cause I had that in mind when Pierce talks to the bald guy who ends up getting captured, and the guy says glad you're back and whatever they have that whole thing, and the, the goon, the minion, says never seen you scared before, like maybe they know, mm, mm, mm, which I don't, I don't know, I don't know, but that that little piece does bother me a little, a little bit, a little bit.

Speaker 2: 22:29

But the the like you. You feel like Tom Ellis is actually in agonizing pain and emotional pain because he's he's afraid that she's dead. And between that and then when he comes through the window with the wings, with that um bloody wings, with that dead weather song playing.

Speaker 3: 22:50

That used to be on my workout. That was on my workout mix for a while.

Speaker 1: 22:54

So I know that song really really well. And I was like oh yeah, I didn't remember this.

Speaker 3: 22:58

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:03

Like your mother Anyway let's let's talk about Pierce for a minute. So I think I was telling you before we started recording that I wish they had shown some of how dangerous he was while he and Chloe were together, because I think that would have been a richer vein for storytelling than the the straight love triangle, Cause the love triangle was just about jealousy.

Speaker 3: 23:27

And it never, and it was, and never quite Never gelled.

Speaker 2: 23:31

Yeah, that's the word. And it's particularly like once Dan learns that Pierce is a center man and and then Chloe's like I almost married him. That level of like menace from him would have been a much richer and more interesting topic, I think, than just the straight jealousy Cause, like I'd be okay with the jealousy was there, if we're a little bit more cognizant of how dangerous he was because he and now some of that I can see, because the way they write Celeste Jills, they just don't get it when it comes to that sort of thing, because Lucifer and Pierce do have that odd connection with each other.

Speaker 3: 24:19

A sort of frenemy thing going on yeah.

Speaker 2: 24:21

But then that again would be of the more interesting love triangle. I agree so.

Speaker 3: 24:27

I've said that before, but also, though, in defense of our story tell. I mean it could have been interesting, sort of in the dramatic irony sense that as viewers we would be seeing his duplicity, yeah, while it was happening. In defense of our showrunners, I wonder if it would have changed the way we felt about Chloe If we, if we, if during the romance we genuinely we felt more strongly that she was being duped, which I think would not be desirable from sort of the showrunner perspective Story part.

Speaker 2: 25:05

Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. It does make it clear, like when she calls him and he's saying, I do love you, it makes it much more clear how incapable of love he is, because what he thinks of as love is like is clearly not an action.

Speaker 3: 25:25

I mean the fact that he could be like he shot her and was like finish it. No, finish it yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:31

Well, even the fact that he was willing to shoot this person that she cares about deeply in front of her, like I cannot imagine being OK with that when it's not, you know, a situation where someone's actually posing a credible danger, right, you know, there are times when I can see that happening and it being justifiable, but even then it would be justifiable, but even then it would be wrenching, like I know I'm hurting this person I love. So, yeah, I did appreciate that Chloe was convinced because he pretended to tear up over Charlotte, yep, and she's like that's not him. So she does know him well enough to know. Like that's just not how he operates, that's not how he shows emotion, nothing. Yeah, we don't have a whole lot of time. I want to make sure we talk about Dan and Mays.

Speaker 3: 26:25

Agreed Really quickly though, because I think this is like the redditor is the thing that you pointed out the dying scene, pierce's dying scene. The conversation between the two of them implies the question that you see on Reddit all the time like what about people who genuinely have no remorse? Do they in fact?

Speaker 2: 26:40

go to heaven? Do they go to heaven because they don't feel bad?

Speaker 3: 26:43

Yeah, yeah, and there seems to be an implication of that.

Speaker 2: 26:47

Because when Pierce knows he's dying, he says well, I still don't feel bad about anything I did, so I'm going to go to heaven. And Lucifer says, oh, you feel it deep down. And so there's.

Speaker 3: 26:58

Right, and so the message that our showrunners were giving us with that was that there actually there is this deep understanding between these two people, that they are mirrors in a certain way.

Speaker 2: 27:08

Well, and it happens immediately because Lucifer Right, even while he's saying it.

Speaker 3: 27:15

even while he's saying it, his eyes have started Right. So there is there. So that is the point that they were making. And then, inadvertently, they made this other point, this other cosmological point, which I think I still think that you are right that there is at least room within the cosmology that they've created that someone who A Hitler, or yeah, yeah, or A whole pot Right, right, would not in fact end up in heaven, despite having no Having no remorse whatsoever. Right.

Speaker 2: 27:47

And I think that was a specific like I'm talking to you, cain, not Exactly. This is how it works, yeah.

Speaker 3: 27:54

Agreed, agreed, all right. So, now let's talk about Dan and Mays.

Speaker 2: 27:57

Yes, poor Dan and poor Charlotte. They got one week together.

Speaker 3: 28:02

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 28:03

I mean, that's about how long it has to have been since the last episode. They really do care about each other. You can tell that she cares about him because he's shown up in her hell loop. I do want to say something also about her. Poor children are going to be very traumatized by the loss of their mother after having lost her in another way.

Speaker 3: 28:26

Multiple times, multiple times.

Speaker 2: 28:29

Yeah, and this is the only time we see Charlotte as herself, with her children, is in this hell loop. We don't even know if she's gotten to see them since she's been back in her own body. Right, it's heartbreaking. I love that Charlotte's wearing the waffle.

Speaker 3: 28:45

The waffle bracelet, bracelet, which is so goofy and so Dan and sweet Like.

Speaker 2: 28:54

What I like about it is that because everyone's like are you sure about that? In terms of the gifts, like, I guess. So, whereas they really like each other for who they are, she likes that he's a goofball and he's the waffle king and he likes that she is so hard driving and who she is, and so I really appreciate that. It's showing that you don't have to pretend to be anyone other than who you are for the person who really loves you. Just a reiteration of that. And then the way that he is responding and acting all throughout the devil of my word is so relatable, every aspect of it is so relatable that he's like I have to work, I totally get that, and even when Pierce is like I'd be in the same position, so that's fine. Just that he's barely holding onto his anger and needs other people redirect him when his anger is getting in a position where bad things could happen. And then thinking about the fact that immediately end of this episode, we know that one of the emotional supports, two of his main emotional supports, are going to go away for a month his ex-wife and his daughter and so he's going to be dealing with this awful heartbreak and anger and sense of betrayal. And Amenadiel's not back yet.

Speaker 2: 30:26

Oh, and Amenadiel, you're right. Three of his main emotional supports. It's just poor Dan. Yeah, I mean. And what a character Arke's had, because we met him as a corrupt cop, yeah. And here he is now as someone we're rooting for.

Speaker 3: 30:45

Yeah, yeah so.

Speaker 2: 30:49

And Mays, mays, oh my goodness. So I said I felt like she stopped spiraling when she's trying to like catfish or I don't know if you'd call it that, but trick Amenadiel. But he immediately gives her a hug and says you know, I will always be there for you.

Speaker 3: 31:07

And you were saying it's more of a pause rather than a stop of the spiraling or slow down or something Slow down. Yeah, I feel like that. Yeah, I feel like when she believes Linda is in danger. That's the true shift.

Speaker 2: 31:21

Yeah, yeah, I think it's the. She finally starts to understand that people do see her.

Speaker 3: 31:30

Yeah, and not just the demon. Well, part of her spiral is that she felt she had nothing on earth, which is why she wanted to go back to hell. And so having Amenadiel say and show in like by embracing her, that she actually does have at least something on earth. So I think that was what the sort of pattern interrupt was, and then the idea that she could lose Linda.

Speaker 3: 31:59

And in a forever kind of way yeah, and knowing that she was at least in part responsible. You know because of her. You know because if Pierce had in fact threatened Linda, it would have been to get to Maze.

Speaker 2: 32:16

Oh yeah, I will say maybe this is fluff, but when Linda says you look like you fought 10 people and ran a mile, she says like you don't need to say it, and she's like there's 12 people and four miles and it's been a while since I considered myself a runner but I'm like a mile's, not that far.

Speaker 3: 32:36

I mean in what she's wearing after fighting some people? True.

Speaker 2: 32:44

True, but I also I appreciate Maze saying like actions are easy for me, I need to say the words, because they're hard.

Speaker 3: 32:52

That was powerful dialogue, honestly, yeah, cause I think that, like that, I need to be brave in the way that's brave for me. I mean, to your point about this helping people like that sort of knowing where your bravery is as opposed to what you know, that felt really, really powerful and important to me. Yeah, all right, so we're out of time?

Speaker 1: 33:16

Yes, I'm gonna name A couple of fluff.

Speaker 3: 33:19

All right, I'm just gonna quickly name that. It was really fun to be faked out with Ella and the phone by the stories, by the writers, like I was faked out, I was like wait, I didn't remember Ella betraying them, being betraying them. No, it's because she didn't Cause she didn't. Yeah, that was really really fun and well done and Amy Garcia nailed it and then the writers nailed it. Well done. That's my little fluff, what you got, okay.

Speaker 2: 33:45

So Chloe is a little bit all disheveled because she stayed up all night working on the forest clay thing. Then they get forest clay. She's having the conversation. So she's been up for you know, 24 hours At least, or more. At that point, yeah, it's like 36. At that point Charlotte dies. The next, next episode we see it's the morning and she's still wearing the same clothes.

Speaker 2: 34:08

Yeah, so Chloe's been up for two days straight and then they have everything that happens and it's like another night and morning where we see she has not gone too bad, so she has been awake Now. It's one of those where, like I would, I would be babbling non set, like I'm not capable of being awake for 72 hours straight, just can't do it. Now, to be fair, that also speaks to the mindset she's in.

Speaker 1: 34:34

Yeah, and the adrenaline yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:38

That, to me, is it was just interesting, cause I didn't notice it first. Couple of times I've watched these episodes, but I definitely was just like did she get an app somewhere, cause she's got to be exhausted.

Speaker 3: 34:50

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 34:51

Yeah, so, and then one last thing she mentioned what you said about the suits.

Speaker 3: 34:56

Yeah, and I have. I have another quick thing, if we can maybe make it happen. So yeah, last time, in our last episode, we talked about the suits. He starts this episode, these two episodes, in a brown suit, which I don't like, but then he moves into the black suit with the white shirt and the red, the red pocket square, pocket square. Yeah, you were saying that that was that there was a theory that that was sort of his devilishness, and then you noted that he's trying to recreate their greatest hit. So of course, that's why he's wearing the black suit with the red, which I really like. Well done. And then the other thing. So two other things maybe. I'll remember both of them. One is when, at the crime scene the next day, when Lucifer finds the feather and then is telling Pierce cause, we don't know yet oh, yeah, yeah, yeah we don't know yet and he's like there's this theory, but he doesn't actually say the word self-actualization.

Speaker 3: 35:45

It's like I like. I backed it up and watched it again. I was like he didn't actually finish his book, yeah yeah, but like maybe it ended on the cutting room floor because it's written as if Pierce understands what the husband said, so that that like bugged me a little bit, yeah, and the I lost whatever the other thing was. So it was so fluffy, it just floated away, it just.

Speaker 3: 36:12

Yeah, you can't help the tendrils, it just totally, it just totally floated away and I'm like darn, I'm disappointed You're going to remember it as soon as we get off Zoom. You're right, I am, I totally am, yeah maybe I'll put it in there, you can do a coda where it's just you.

Speaker 2: 36:30

I can put it in there. Hey, I thought of it. I think that would be cool, at least for our 12, 15, 15 subscribers. We love you all. Thank you for subscribing. Okay. I'm a minute late for my next meeting, so I better get going, okay.

Speaker 3: 36:47

Okay, see you next week. See you next week.

Speaker 1: 36:50

Our theme song is Ferrel Angel Waltz by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetent Doorcom, Licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 4.0 License. Visit the show notes for the URL. I am an artificially generated voice powered by Narakeepcom. Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix. Tracy and Emily are not affiliated with Fox, Netflix nor WB. If you liked this episode, subscribe to keep over thinking with them and visit the show notes for other ways to connect.