“Expire Erect” (Die Hard, get it?) and “Orgy Pants to Work” turn out to be fantastic fodder for the Guy Girls’ particular brand of overthinking, and we did not hold back.
Tracie had some THINGS to say about the mythology of Lilith (Maze’s mom), which led to some questions about who (and how) Lilith even is, and whether or not Lucifer could have been Eve’s “first time.” To answer those questions, we actually got a copy of the Bible off the shelf to check the chronology of what happened in and after the garden of Eden.
Also in this episode, we dig into what’s going on with the writers’ manipulation of our feelings by making the bad guy super reprehensible. We unpack the use of female archetypes of maiden, mother, crone, whore, and witch (and why Eve can’t be maternal because Chloe’s got the lock on that one), which leads to Emily reassuring her sister, “oh honey, you can still be a whore if you want to.
There’s also some speculation as to whether or not “punchable face” is an acting choice and the stamina-inducing powers of acai.
If you only ever listen to one episode of LIghtbringers, this should be the one.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
“Expire Erect” (Die Hard, get it?) and “Orgy Pants to Work” turn out to be fantastic fodder for the Guy Girls’ particular brand of overthinking, and we did not hold back.
Tracie had some THINGS to say about the mythology of Lilith (Maze’s mom), which led to some questions about who (and how) Lilith even is, and whether or not Lucifer could have been Eve’s “first time.” To answer those questions, we actually got a copy of the Bible off the shelf to check the chronology of what happened in and after the garden of Eden.
Also in this episode, we dig into what’s going on with the writers’ manipulation of our feelings by making the bad guy super reprehensible. We unpack the use of female archetypes of maiden, mother, crone, whore, and witch (and why Eve can’t be maternal because Chloe’s got the lock on that one), which leads to Emily reassuring her sister, “oh honey, you can still be a whore if you want to.
There’s also some speculation as to whether or not “punchable face” is an acting choice and the stamina-inducing powers of acai.
If you only ever listen to one episode of LIghtbringers, this should be the one.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
Tracy here. This is embarrassing. In this episode that you're about to listen to, I go off on a tangent about Eve's name and I got it wrong. Eve's name, the biblical Eve, was Chava, and it says in the text she's called that because she's the mother of all living, which would be Chaya, and the two words must be related. But it wasn't Chaya, so my apologies for leading you astray. However, my story about the misplaced vowel on the pronoun remains. Is it why she's called Eve in English? Maybe it's my headcanon as to why. Anyway, I hope you'll forgive me.
Speaker 2:Enjoy this episode, tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah, the plot which they overthink.
Speaker 3:Hey there, I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken she does not use a hyphen and I am here with my sister, tracy Guy-Dekker she does use a hyphen, I do, it's true and together this is Lightbringers, where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show. And, yeah, we are overthinking it so much. So today we're gonna talk about 405 and 406, expire erect and orgy pants to work, and we actually had planned to record this, like three weeks ago, two weeks ago. So we're gonna talk about 405 and 406, two weeks ago, two weeks ago, whatever, some time ago, and now we're recording. So we both had to re-watch or re-watch so that we could record, which is an interesting phenomenon. Hasn't happened to us before. It's like when I do the laundry and then forget to put it in a dryer so I gotta wash it again, is it mildly? Yeah, yeah, that's a yucky metaphor, thank you for that, but it's, you know, it's relatable. What's interesting about these two episodes? I'm thinking it's now that I've re-watched and re-watched, especially expire erect, like it has like, especially the way it starts. It's this sort of absurdist and like funny, but sort of like funny, weird and a little bit funny, ha ha. But actually there's some really deep, dark contemplation happening in these two episodes which I think is kind of interesting. So when it comes to expire, erect, I think that you know getting into that deeper stuff.
Speaker 3:At the end, when Chloe talks to Menadil cause she was like I kind of want to just make sure that Eve is okay, that she's not going to be trying to destroy the world or she's not secretly evil or anything, because, like she saw that Eve really does appear to be good for Lucifer, and the fact that the response that Eve has when Chloe says to her like have you seen a scary base? Does it scare you? And she's like why would it? And like that is the most accepting possible response. And then when Eve says, and it's here and in the next episode where she's like no one ever asked me what I wanted until him except for him, and recognizing the power of that, it's completely understandable why Eve would pine for him and slip back into her old bones. Look at him. Well, yeah, that too. Yeah, if you were my ex, there would definitely be some pining.
Speaker 3:Anyway, sorry I interrupted you, but it's understandable why she would spend millennia and to the point of where she realized, like you know what. This is unsustainable for me. To stay in heaven cause this is so boring, like Adam doesn't love me and never will, and like all he wants to do is sit and watch ESPN and I just I want to do stuff and experience stuff. So the fact that she, you know, like was like all right, I'm gonna see if I can get out of heaven and like get back into my old bones, which is kind of freaking cool.
Speaker 3:So, you know, it's interesting that you bring up that final conversation with Amenadiel, because one of the things that I noticed in my re-re-watch was that earlier in the episode, amenadiel was sort of having that's the inverse thought about Eve and Lucifer, that she's not good for him because she's gonna erase the growth that he's had, and so and I actually think DB Woodside kind of played that in that final conversation with Chloe, because it almost felt like he was holding something back yes, when she was like he didn't say I hope so.
Speaker 3:When she said something like he seems good, she seems good for him, eve seems good for Lucifer, and he was like I hope you're right, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3:Amenadiel doesn't think that Eve is good for Lucifer, and so I think that that was so. It was interesting to have that conversation happen with Chloe and Amenadiel specifically not Linda, right, like not Maze, but Amenadiel, who had expressed concerns about this relationship and what it might mean for Lucifer. Also, as an aside, overthinking it, since in our last episode I went into my long rabbit hole about Eve's name, and then there's that back and forth where DB Woodside as Amenadiel keeps going Eve, you know, and finally Ellis is Lucifer. It's like I know her name, yeah, and I'm like actually there I am sitting in my living room overthinking it. Anyway, that just like tickled me after our last conversation.
Speaker 3:Yes, very much so. Yeah, I had that thought as well because of what you had gone into with that with her name. Yeah, with her name. The thing that I think is interesting is the next episode does seem to indicate that Eve is bad for him, but I'm not sure how I feel about that Now, like the, and in the next episode, what we have happened is she encourages him to like accept his devil nature and punish the human trafficker piece of crap who they write to be so completely lacking in any sympathy. He's zero redeeming.
Speaker 2:Anything no redeeming.
Speaker 3:And they had to do that so that we, so that they don't lose us, yes, they don't lose our sympathy for the devil. Yes, see what I did there. They had to write that guy whose name is escaping me, julian McCaffrey, thank you. They had to write Julian as like rotten as possible and smarmy and like arrogant and entitled, so that they don't lose our sympathy when they leave us, knowing that Lucifer is about to torture him. Yes, yeah, and I mean it was bad, like I watching it not the second rewatch, but the first we watched two weeks ago when we thought we were gonna connect I had forgotten some of the details and so when they get to the ship and then I see the women, like the you know powering women, coming off the ship and I was like it's people, you know, like it was sort of green or something and and like it, like it, really like it's. Oh, there's a visceral like, oh, really rough, he didn't just kill poor boring Gary. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's so.
Speaker 3:So I actually I want to come back to something you said about that. The second episode suggests that Eve is bad for him, which I think it's really interesting, because I actually think the writers are trying to problematize for us, like by spending all this time and having Chloe say do you like who you are, do you like what you're doing? And like this question of if I want to be a better person, but I've never been that person. Is it somehow disingenuous? Is it even real? Is the way that Lucifer says it which we're going to spend? We spent a lot of time in this, all six seasons, thinking about what is real, which I think is interesting. Yeah, I actually think that there is some.
Speaker 3:There is at least some ambivalence on the part of our writers that they want us to feel about Lucifer.
Speaker 3:I mean because Eva's right, it was the bad man's fault that Joan died, it was not Lucifer's.
Speaker 3:And also, if Lucifer had made a different choice earlier in the episode, joan wouldn't be dead, right, and so there's definitely a push and pull on whether or not Eva's version of who Lucifer is is bad.
Speaker 3:Well, and part of what I'm reacting to, also in Orgy Pants to Work, is Linda says to him like you're bifurcating yourself, you're trying to be two things at once and I kind of I recognize what they're doing in the episode with Lucifer and he clearly cannot do both things at once. All in, like that. But I reject the idea that you can't be both of those things Agreed. And they talk about it a little bit, they get into it just a titsy little bit when Lucifer and Ella are interviewing people at the nudist colony before Chloe joins them. Annie is the name of the like sweet old work lady who is talking like new Gary Well and saying like oh, he just he found his place and his people here and like you know, when he was getting involved in all the community stuff and he was going to help us with the chest club and the chest club, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And he was going to help us all with our taxes and he's like oh so, he was a dedicated accountant and a nudist. And she's like we come from all walks of life, you know, we've got teachers, judges, you know, but, and so there's a little bit of like yeah, it is possible to have a outside the norm lifestyle and a perfectly within the norm job, and that that's something like and you can go all in on both of them, like he, like poor Gary had gone all in, like he found the nudist colony, he was just like I finally feel comfortable, and he joined the chest club and the book club and made friends with their taxes. Yeah, so that that's me like.
Speaker 3:Not that I like this is a great episode and it's not that I wish that they had done anything different, but I feel like the message of the episode is like no, you can't have it all.
Speaker 3:And it's like well, I kind of reject that in the same way, like when I first started working with children, when I worked at the boys and girls club when I was out of college, and there would be things that I did on the weekend where I'm like I can't believe they let me run children and like it just just being a normal young adult and like I don't want people to feel like you can't contain multitudes. You know you can't be a like in the same way that we first see Eve in that episode and she's like hi, great, no hostess rules. You know she can be like she's taking care of her guests while being a dominatrix, right, well, say, nobody passes out unless they want to. I mean, like you can be, it's a both end, and so that, to me, is where I struggle with this episode, because it's saying that Lucifer can't do this and like I don't see why he can't.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think if there were like some differences, like if he just made some concessions in both parts of his life, you know, were actual trousers to work, were actual trousers to work and had had, like you know, standing dates, rather than, like we're spending every day together, all the time Briefly off. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because he even says to me this is a school night party. Like you should come back on the weekends. Yeah, you know, it's interesting too, because I do think that in some ways the writers acknowledge that when Chloe realizes he's asleep and she's like I want you to be happy, but I hate the way you're happy, I think there is sort of an acknowledgement of like it's not that he can't have that lifestyle, it's that she's uncomfortable with it. She even recognizes it's kind of not her place, although in some ways it's because she's, she's jealous, which she also admits because she loves him. But yeah, it's interesting and complicated. Yeah, I appreciate them taking this on.
Speaker 3:I, just when Linda is so often the like, the voice of reason, I wish there had just been like another sentence in there about like you're bifurcating your life right now. Like you say you're having it all, but I, you know it doesn't look like it's not saying it's not possible, but it's not happening. You know, like that's what I wish there had been something in there, just just because, like so often, people will choose the normal path, I think so. Here's the thing. What I think was missing especially from this show, right, that that, and Eve keeps making the point about nobody asked what I want, right, like part of what is unsustainable about Lucifer's having it all is that he is trying to make both of those women happy with his behavior, as opposed to like what does he want, and that's why he spends all that time, like why she says you just spent the past several minutes sending apology gifts to both of them.
Speaker 3:I feel like that's actually what is unsustainable that he's trying to be 100% the man that Chloe wants and 100% the man that Eve wants, but those two men are not the same man, and so that's really what's unsustainable. So it's not that you can't have it all, or even that you can't, like have things that you know, two things that actually don't touch except in you. They don't touch in time, but they can't touch in time, and that's where, like, I don't know, like I'm not exactly sure how I would write it differently, but I do think that that really is what. Well, and that problem, and which is interesting from this show, which is all about desire, yes, well in particular, since that's what he does is.
Speaker 3:He tries to fulfill the desires of the people around him so that that actually very much fits, rather than his own. Rather than his own desires, yeah, yeah, which you know he. The only time he actually speaks to his own desires at that point is when he says he wants to be a better man. Work makes him want to be a better man, which work is the euphemism for Chloe? I, I understood. Yeah, yeah, so that it's. It's a there's, there's layers, there's layers here. That's why we do this. Also, a bunch of dick jokes. So, oh, so many dick jokes. Can I just say did you notice yellow squash in the fruit bowl? Well, they thought a banana would be just too obvious Banana joke A couple episodes ago. Yes, yeah, so can. Can I just point out, did? Did you notice that? Expire erect is their their version of diehard? No, expire, die, correct, hard. Oh, and it is also a kidnapping situation. Yeah, huh, that's not one of my. It's not. It's another Capaganda movie.
Speaker 1:I have seen it once. It's not one of mine.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've seen it more than you have.
Speaker 1:Oh, have you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I've only seen it once and I just yeah, so, but yeah, that to me seemed like someone was just like oh, this is going to be hilarious.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So I do want to talk a little bit about some of the stuff that happened in Expire To start the car show stuff. So I married to an automotive engineer who was a died in the wool car geek. His first car was a vintage Volkswagen Beetle that he fixed up himself. My first car was a Volkswagen Beetle which I hired someone to fix up and he was two hours late to pick up his like homecoming date in the Beetle because he was trying to get it running and she was not impressed and I still didn't pass like state inspection requirements.
Speaker 3:In any case, I know that scene a little bit better than most and that felt about right. The thing that I will tell you that is absolutely correct was Kev, the guy who was their suspect, who got tired, Right. This is the best pun. It was a good pun, that's the best. I think that might have killed him, though I know like considering how hard it hit him, but sorry, but Kev, he's like you should check out the scary guy Like. I don't know his name. I can't tell you what he looked like.
Speaker 3:I was a 1992, geo Metro in his color, whatever? Green. And I was like that is spot on. My husband does not know the names of our neighbors, but he can tell you exactly what they each drive. Yeah, yeah, so yeah, that was well done, writers. So I appreciated that I also.
Speaker 3:I had this realization this time around. So we're in this portion of the show where the first person they interview turns out to be the murderer, although that does not happen in Orgy Pants Other things happen in Orgy Pants. So I was thinking like what the heck was Marco doing? Like waiting around so he could be interviewed, and then like that doesn't make any sense. And then realizing, oh wait, no, he wants to eventually be on their radar so that they can help him find Leona. I'm like, oh, okay, all right, I'll give that, because it was just like Leona at some point says he always was tougher than he was smart. I'm like yeah, but then like, okay, well, yeah, no, if you wouldn't have been on their radar and that made it more likely that blah, blah, blah, blah. But how long did it take him to set up that bomb? It couldn't have taken him that long, because how do you know where Detective Decker would be. Yeah, that's a good point, although Lucifer was with her at the crime scene.
Speaker 3:Although he wasn't with her at the crime scene, where he met her, where Marco met her, because that was no. That was at the very beginning, when they were like, oh right, because she calls him, because she needs the car.
Speaker 1:Right, you're right you're right.
Speaker 3:You're right. Yeah, why did he? Why was it at Luc's? So the only thing I could think of is that he followed her there, and it doesn't like he had everything all set up. All he had to do was like pop in a couple things. Yeah, because it was in a box. Yeah, we just had to drop the box. Yeah, so it was my theory. So, like he got there about that same time that Chloe did and just boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. All right now, yeah, that works, especially like it wasn't like hidden, really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was just up on the landing.
Speaker 3:It was just up on the landing. Yeah, a little unobtrusive, not hidden. So the other thing I was like what if he had eaten the Southwest sandwich without seeing Chloe about it In that one? Why is Dan calling the shots? Where's the lieutenant? I mean they must have replaced Pierce and it wouldn't have been with Dan. He's still kind of demoted. I mean he's. Yeah, it's economy of characters, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I also like I struggled to believe that Dan would let Leona in to talk to Marco. I think because Chloe and Ella were in there, he might have accepted it. Yeah Well, and after the conversation of the ends, just by the beans things with the babies.
Speaker 3:Well, and specifically like when he said like people I care about and you know what I mean, like. So I think they did set us up that he maybe wasn't in his most strategic thinking, because we're talking about Chloe, it's more the like but why is he calling the shots when the SWAT team go like what are you doing? Excuse me, yeah, what are you doing? Yeah, so I don't know why he would have been calling the shots at all. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I feel like someone in the chain of command would have been like absolutely not, we're not doing that. Yeah, we're at least put her in protective gear, protective gear something. Yeah, yeah, so yeah. So we're focusing a lot on orgy pants, but I'm going to come back to it again. So at the beginning we realized there's been like a month or more between the last one and the last episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I go out of town for a few months and you 50 shades of betray me Right. Well, she says a few minutes and he's like been gone for months. Yeah, yeah, months, because then she's surprised that Linda.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Because Linda it's. Yeah, it's probably at least three or four months for Linda to have grown. Yeah, yeah, so, okay. So there's a small little subplot about May's kind of grappling with her maternal wounds, her early maternal wounds. Right, you know it's coming in. Lillith is the mother of the demons, the lilym, of whom there are thousands, they are legion. Who's their father? I think it's like a parthenogenesis. It's clear from the Jewish apocrypha. Lucifer is their father. I'm not okay with that. I know. Maybe all except May's, all except May's, may's was the first and just because she does look exactly like Lillith, which we'll know later, she does, and so I think she was just like parthenogenesis.
Speaker 3:I think our raiders don't want to deal with the fact that he has a millennial long sexual relationship with his kid. It's not, though, because he's so weirded out by his mom, I know, but, like our raiders, they just don't answer. They never tell us who she just creates her own children. That's what Lillith did.
Speaker 3:That is my head cannon and you cannot take it away from me. Okay, but if we're overthinking this and I am the resident like biblical scholar such as I am, well, what was the okay, since they also bring it up? The Lillith and Adam? What is the background on that? Because the first time I will tell you, the first time I ever heard of Lillith, was in when I read the Lion, the Witch and the Word Road, and Mr Beaver explains to the pevency children, like you know, aren't all human, sons of Adam and daughters of Eve. He's like no, adam had a first wife, lillith. You know her children are not. And I was just like what is he making up? I've never heard this before.
Speaker 3:So if you look at Genesis, there are two creation stories that get kind of like shoved together. The first one says in the King James male and female, created he them. God created humans, a boy and a girl. The boy was Adam, the girl was Lillith, so they were created as equal. And then later it says the thing about the rib that God made Adam a. Help me out of Adam's rib because it is not good, because God saw that it was not good for Adam to be alone. So it's really. I mean, if you kind of like peel back the layers, it appears to be two separate stories that got shoved together into the same book. To explain the discrepancy there's, this whole story got spun off about that first equally created female Lillith and the story that got created because they were like well, what happened to her right, where did the name Lillith come from? That I don't know. That I don't know. But I will do research because she comes up again. So I'll do research, stay tuned, folks. But what I do know is the ancient rabbis and sages were like well, what happened? And they spun off this whole story where, because they were created as equal, adam was like lie down, i'mma get on top of you. And she was like no, I won't be on top of you. And he was like bye, and because she wouldn't submit, I mean, they were still talking about, like, basically, either missionary or woman astride. They were talking about sex, but because she wanted to be on top, like she got banished and she was like y'all, y'all, I'm out. So she wanted to make sure that her own pleasure was important. Adam freaked out and she left. She left the garden, she went and married the devil, okay, and what were the things that Eve was talking about in this episode? About, like the? Adam would be like, oh, lilith, she something conquered the beasts or something. Oh well, this is whole story. Well, because she goes off and she becomes the consort to the devil. She has, she has, with whole mythology around her, okay, so of power, but I don't, I don't know, like those specific things didn't ring any bells for her. Okay, okay.
Speaker 3:Now the other question I have for you, then, is the way that it's written in this show is that Eve didn't understand sex until Lucifer tempted her. Is the way that they've written it? I think it's more that she didn't understand pleasure, pleasure her own, okay, I mean, which is in line with the way that the rabbis understood the argument between Lilith and Adam. But Adam wanted to be on top. Yeah, well, because the no, eve does say it's on. When Eve was made, she was like, yeah, okay, okay, I lie down. The thing is that the well, okay, I was.
Speaker 3:Just because Eve says you never forget your first, but I guess it doesn't still mean first time, it might just mean first orgasm or first love, or first, you know, yeah, I just that wasn't an earlier episode, that wasn't in this. Oh no, that was when she was talking to the jewelry guy, the shear. Yeah, yeah, no, it's, it wasn't in this. One of these episodes I was just like thinking about that. Okay, all right, and it's. I mean, it's on, it's possible. It is a possible reading because the so the story they're. They're living in the garden. God says you can eat of any tree except for that one in the center of the garden, and that was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And after that they realized they were naked and put on the figures Exactly, exactly. After that they realized they were naked and they hide, yeah, because they were ashamed of their nakedness, uh-huh.
Speaker 3:Which they were not. Yeah, they were not eating the apple. So one could potentially read that there was, that there was not in fact sexual intimacy between the two of them prior to. I would have to look it up, but my recollection of the Genesis story is that Adam doesn't know his wife until after they are exiled.
Speaker 3:And then became an abler conceived. Yeah, yeah, that's my recollection. Okay, I would, I so? So the knowledge of the tree of knowledge was really the knowledge of body dysmorphia. It's specifically the knowledge of good and evil. Yeah, and I, I know, I know, and that's that's where a lot of like really regressive bullshit comes from about how, like, sex is sinful, because that's what, yeah, adam and Eve were ashamed of. Yeah, yeah, it's. I think it's complicated. I think you could read it in many ways. I just pulled down the text.
Speaker 3:This is the JPS translation. So when, after? So, eve is named because she was the mother of all living, but that was before, like that happens at 320. But then that's before they've been cast out. And so, and at and at 322, genesis 322, adonai says now the man that is Adam has become like one of us, knowing good and bad. What if he should stretch out his hand and take also from the tree of life and live forever? Okay, so Adonai banished him from the Garden of Eden to till the soil from which he was taken, drove the man out, stationed east of Eden, the cherubim with the fiery sword to guard the way. 4-1, genesis 4-1. Now the man knew his wife, eve, and she conceived in Borkane. So I don't believe that we actually see. I mean, like the text, there are lots of holes in the text.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's why we have Midrash there are a lot of holes you could drive a semi through. That's why we have Midrash, but they did not. I do not believe that they had. The text does not say that they had sex until until they've been banished.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's you know what to. I guess I think this is an expir erect also. Yeah, it is when Amenadiel says to its Eve are you going to hurt Lucifer, have you hurt him? And she's like, only if he asks. Nicely, and she's like, and Amenadiel points out like he killed your son. And what's interesting is, until that moment, the like the show is not presenting her as the mother of Canaan Abel, Like they're very much presenting her as the like first pre-Garden, yeah, the guard version of Eve, and her explanation seems interesting and also very cold. Like she calls Abel her sweet child, Like you know, and that Charlotte Richard reminded her of Abel and that Can only got what was coming to him. And even though she refers to Abel as her sweet kid you know, my sweet Abel, there's nothing very maternal there for either of them.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 3:Well, that doesn't fit with the party girl.
Speaker 3:No, they want the, the book that Shell wants her to be. Yeah, yeah, and you know that's. It's also, you know, fair. She didn't have to be maternal. It's interesting because that's not how another show that was more committed to certain viewpoints would have. If I guess what? I? I spend a lot of time watching YouTube shows and listening to podcasts and stuff like that about fundamentalists, fundamentalist Christianity, and if they were in charge of the show which obviously they would never be, but they it would be very important to them to show her as, like you know, endlessly maternal. And so and I just I find that interesting because, like, we just don't think of her as being mother at all. Well, it wouldn't work for the, the role that this character plays in this mechanism wouldn't work. She needs to be the foil to Chloe. Chloe is straight-list, chloe is maternal. She even says I go to PTA meetings, you go to orgies. Yeah, that's true. Chloe is the mother.
Speaker 3:In this love triangle, eve is the whore. Right, if we have the maiden mother, crone, and then there's the whore and the witch, eve is the whore in this little thing. Chloe's the mother. That's even her attitude toward Lucifer. Like, I want you to be happy. Eve is good for him. It's still a caretaking. I mean, that's what Menadil says to her. Like, after all you've been through, you're most worried about the best interests of the people you care about. I mean, if that isn't our archetypal mother characteristic, I don't know what is. Yeah, there's something also very young about Eve, yep, which is why I say she's the whore and not the witch. Yes, like the witch is like me, like through the menopausal, perimenopausal, postmenopausal age, no longer childbearing. But, honey, you could be a whore if you want to be. Thanks, you're a witchy whore, yes, but specifically, my sexuality is only like someone at my stage of life, like past childbearing age, my sexuality is only for pleasure, which is because I cannot procreate, because I'm too old for that shit. But I'm not a crone yet.
Speaker 3:Eve, the way that in Barlavi plays her and the way that our writers write her is not at that phase. She's not even. She's not between mother and crone, she's between maiden and mother. Even though officially she's a mother, she's that sort of in between space between maiden and mother, and so that and that space is a whore, which is part of why she has I mean, not has to she lives into it. They write into her that all of that. You know she's up for anything, including you know she expresses sexual appreciation of maize. Repeatedly. She kisses Ella to calm her down, like, so it's not even just the heterosexual sex, which is all the more so for that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so a version of role who does not allow her sexuality to be only controlled by procreation? Yeah, yeah, and it actually it fits. I mean, it fits with considering, like, the way that they've written her is like I was literally made from someone else. For that person, I'm a subset of another human being and you told me I could be more than that, and so I'm being all the more than that I could be, which also feels very young, like it's the. It's the when someone breaks out of the straight laced rules of their childhood and kind of going the wild out.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it also my first watch through. I got frustrated because I really like the character of Eve and, like I've mentioned before, inbar Lavi does an amazing job with a thankless role in that she makes her likeable. Like you really are rooting for her, even though Even when she's encouraging Lucifer to torture someone yes and so like I'll give it to her. Yeah, she's got a point here. I mean they did write that guy into it. Oh, my goodness. So also. I mentioned this when we weren't able to record last time. But like, that guy has a punchable face, like Martin Shkreli, shkreli, yeah, and so, like Martin Shkreli, I don't think his punchable face ever comes off Like I think. That's just, I think his face would have looked punchable when he was six. I don't know. I mean the entitlement Well, that's what I think. The entitlement's been there since birth. The farmabrow he was a farmabrow. Yes, he was the one who made Increase the crisis of insulin I think or something yeah, it was a diabetes.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just for profit, just cause he could, yeah. So, anyway, I looked up this actor. I was just like how, like you know, did they cast someone who just has a punchable face, or is that something that you can act your way into? Some of it is the way he looks. So I looked up this actor and he's not been a whole bunch of stuff, but I found a trailer for an independent movie he was in and he's acting that punchable face, like he was playing a sympathetic character in the movie. I saw the trailer for and I'm just like, holy cow, like, and I kept having to remind myself I was the same guy, cause I'm like it doesn't look like I'm like him.
Speaker 3:It's that, it's the yeah.
Speaker 3:It's the smoke, it's the smoke so I got sidetracked cause of the punchable face. I was talking about witches and whores. Yeah, oh, oh, oh, okay, okay. I remember getting frustrated the first time through cause I liked Eve and when she's, like you know, just sitting waiting for Lucifer and Maze, it's like come on, let's get out of here. You know it's cause you don't have a life. You know you need a life Ends when she gets.
Speaker 3:When they get back in, they've clearly had a wonderful time because they have a giant teddy bear and a chainsaw and a sash and they're laughing and they're laughing, but Lucifer still isn't home and I can remember feeling that way as a teenager whereas, like you know what, I'm going to go off and do my own thing and isn't he going to be mad, miss me, and like nope, still doesn't, still isn't there, and that really bothered me that she wasn't able to get past that. But it actually really fits with how she's written and that she's saying, like you know, she was created to be something for someone and so even when she breaks out to be herself, she's still going to kind of latch onto that role because it's the only one she's known. So but yeah, that's like she's down through that ball in the swimming pool, like I'm sure I'll be back any minute, just like oh honey, no, don't do that. Go have fun with Maze, go create a life for yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I do wonder, like the gifts that he got, the printer for Chloe.
Speaker 3:I mean maybe, yeah, maybe if she'd been complaining about the precinct printer, I guess I don't. I mean, it made for a interesting moment when Eve got it and was like oh, this guy and like plugged it in, but yeah, no, it didn't work for me either. Same thing with the sex doll, it's just like, but that at least I think Eve would appreciate that I don't know, honestly, it made more sense than a printer. True, very true, yeah, yeah. Well, we have been talking for a while. So that thought, and then let's move on to fluff Meal and a menadil. So how did that end? That's the thing I actually. Last time, when we planned it, I was just like wait a minute, how did that end? Did I forget how it ended? And it's because it doesn't end.
Speaker 1:He tells her that he is, and then it cuts away.
Speaker 3:And the next time we see him. He's showing up at Chloe's house. Yeah, no, no, he doesn't show up at Chloe's house. That's in the first. That's an expirer act. Remmials is in orgy pants. Oh, okay, and so we just don't see a solution.
Speaker 1:Don't see them again.
Speaker 3:So maybe it'll be in devil is, devil is as devil does. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it is yeah.
Speaker 3:There's, I know, the remmials like a two or three store three episode arc. So, yeah, it's interesting seeing another Celestial because we see so few of them. And yeah, seeing that she's the younger hero worshiper that Azrael is to Issafer is kind of cool. You know, what's interesting too is that. So she's got a scar on it on one cheek and in one of our recent episodes a many deal says we were born fully formed adults, like there's never been an angel baby before which they needed for the moment, so that you know Linda could have her freaked out and whatever.
Speaker 3:But I don't. I feel with other things that they've said like, didn't they even like when we met Uriel, didn't the goddess say something like remember when you all were kids, you know like, and he was always chasing after you, like it. Just, I think it's a young time. She might have said maybe I don't know, I'd have to go back and look at it, but I was left with the impression that they did have childhoods of a sort and anyway, and that sort of like hero worship about your big brother or older I mean older brother, big brother, doesn't make sense. If you were born, I mean I don't know. But anyway, the other thing, like the scar, which I guess the actress just has a scar, but like it bothered me a little bit because they're celestials, they make it clear that she's a huntress, so but she shouldn't, she should heal, unless it was another angel, that another celestial, that was a celestial stag can can, because it's yeah, I guess it's a silver city stag.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, all right, all right, all right.
Speaker 3:All right, you got your overthinking problems, I got your overthinking solutions Mental furniture rearranging. Celestial stags can injure. Celestial stags can injure celestial angels. Angels, yes. I wonder what it, what it does to the human souls. I mean, do they? Do they not have? They don't have any. They don't have a corporeal body Like Azrael's blade. Yeah yeah, oh yeah. So I think you're not allowed to go to the woods outside of the silver city because the celestial stags can destroy you. So, all right, there you go, fluff, you got some fluff, fluff. I just I want to just an appreciation post for both Tom Ellis and Amy Garcia's asses. I second Damn Also her hair, because I have pretty long hair and I know her like I think that must have been some hair extensions because I don't think it cover her boobs completely, so and she's got long hair. But I like I don't think she's got hair halfway down her torso, long hair. So I want to.
Speaker 3:Oh, I want to talk about when they're. When he is sleeping in the car and she wakes him up, he says that's me the goat. Yes, but remember, he doesn't know where the goat thing came from. He claims, right, he hates the goat thing. I was thinking maybe it's not a devil thing, maybe it's an orgy thing.
Speaker 1:Worse.
Speaker 3:And like it was adorable. But also like what? Like when he snores and then he's sort of like yeah, I refuse to believe anyone that attractive, is that gross. Sleeping, like the snoring was one thing. Actually, my spouse was in the room when that happened and goes what is he doing with his mouth? Yeah, yeah, oh, one other piece of fluff. The first time around watching this, we were talking about, like I think it was sometime during season five and you know, like before Lucifer and Chloe actually get together, we're like how is this going to work? Because she is a human woman and a human woman cannot handle 10 times a day and a big Ben strikes 10. He's big Ben. How is that going to work? I mean, even with his ability to draw out her desire, there is such a thing as chafing. So I don't know. I don't know. I have wondered about that, because that's 10 times a day, it's every two and a half hours and that's if you don't sleep, that's every hour and a half. You get out eight hours a night.
Speaker 1:How, what?
Speaker 3:That's why he's never been tied down to just one person. Yeah yeah, that kind of need requires an open relationship. Yeah Well, and the fact that he says to Eve give a devil a break at the very beginning, just like, let a devil recharge. Yeah, what have you been doing, eve? And like, is it a saibaris? I got nothing. I got nothing, nothing. I'm glad that I can end on a strong note. So, see you next week. See you next week.
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