“Devil is as Devil Does” and “Super Bad Boyfriend” give some hints that the writers were wrestling with their copagandistic vehicle. However, there were also moments in these two episodes, especially in Chloe’s voice, that oversimplify the “rightness” of human justice. That they made these explorations around the death of a Black teenager is all the more topical (and will be returned to in season 6).
These two episodes also tackle the experience of self-hatred that both sisters find heart-breakingly relatable. From Lucifer’s bat-like wings, to Dan’s attempts to externalize his self-loathing in a beating from Maze, to Maze reacting to a would-be date who is remarkably like she is, our writers invite us to think about self-perception again and again.
As always, the sisters investigate the story structure and writing, lingering over the ways the dialogue and the acting communicate the story, and teasing out the meaning of specific glances and blocking.
Mentioned in this episode:
Helen Rosen “ How Apples Go Bad” https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-gastronomy/how-apples-go-bad
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
“Devil is as Devil Does” and “Super Bad Boyfriend” give some hints that the writers were wrestling with their copagandistic vehicle. However, there were also moments in these two episodes, especially in Chloe’s voice, that oversimplify the “rightness” of human justice. That they made these explorations around the death of a Black teenager is all the more topical (and will be returned to in season 6).
These two episodes also tackle the experience of self-hatred that both sisters find heart-breakingly relatable. From Lucifer’s bat-like wings, to Dan’s attempts to externalize his self-loathing in a beating from Maze, to Maze reacting to a would-be date who is remarkably like she is, our writers invite us to think about self-perception again and again.
As always, the sisters investigate the story structure and writing, lingering over the ways the dialogue and the acting communicate the story, and teasing out the meaning of specific glances and blocking.
Mentioned in this episode:
Helen Rosen “ How Apples Go Bad” https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-gastronomy/how-apples-go-bad
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
Tracy here. This is embarrassing. In this episode that you're about to listen to, I go off on a tangent about Eve's name and I got it wrong. Eve's name, the biblical Eve, was Chava, and it says in the text she's called that because she's the mother of all living, which would be Chaya, and the two words must be related. But it wasn't Chaya, so my apologies for leading you astray. However, my story about the misplaced vowel on the pronoun remains. Is it why she's called Eve in English? Maybe it's my headcanon as to why. Anyway, I hope you'll forgive me. Enjoy this episode.
Speaker 2:Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah, the plot which they overthink.
Speaker 1:Hello there, I'm a little rusty, it's been a while. I am here with my sister, tracy Guy Decker yes, hyphen. And I'm here with my sister, emily Guy Berkin no, hyphen, it's true. And together we are lightbringers where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show. And you bet your sweet ass, we're overthinking it. We really are so much. And today we are going to be talking about episodes 407 and 408 devil is this, devil does, and super bad boyfriend. And these are they're. They're excellent episodes of TV, but they're, they're dark. There's, there's some real darkness in this. I'm really looking forward to talking about it, but I also, like, was a little bit dreading watching them, although in some ways I mean, as you have pointed out multiple times, like when Lucifer hates himself, like when he's your, your favorite Lucifer is the devil student Lucifer. And so the self loathing in these episodes. There's a lot of pathos there. It's actually. It's not. It's not Lucifer is not the reason why I feel that way. It's, it's actually a menadil. The, the actual.
Speaker 1:Finally, reckoning with the racism in the LAPD and the real meaning of raising a black boy in America in the 21st century. Yeah, yeah, why. I like oppression? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, when you, when you like. I mean not to jump into the second episode, but I, you know, I watched them this morning before we got on and I found myself thinking if a parent of a black child, boy or girl, had an option to raise their child somewhere other than here you, of course, it would be tempting to do so. Yeah, and you know, there's the very in your face issue that he sees, with Caleb being pushed to the ground and violently arrested when he was not in any way resisting arrest or posing problem anything. But then there's the, the smaller things I have been reading a little bit about and smaller is it's hard to say so it's not as in your face of, like the, the types of microaggressions and and issues that people of color face just navigating the world, and how exhausting that is, and and the, the amount of stress that puts on literally people's lives.
Speaker 1:Exactly, yes, and watching that episode for one thing. Now my kids are not Caleb's age, but my, my eldest, just turned 12. For the first time since I first watched this, I can see, like what it's like to parents a teenager in a way that I hadn't before, and how terrifying that has to be for parents of particularly black boys. But you know, and any, any teenager who is from marginalized community and and and recognizing how violent the world can be towards them, it just I, like I was crying, like through that whole whole episode, particularly because I knew it was coming and that there's no, there's no good resolution for it. And I was wondering you had talked about. In season six they grapple with this issue again in a any even deeper way, and I appreciate that. And you had said that you heard DB Woodside give a an interview where he talked about he made a nuisance of himself to the writers to make sure they did that, and I was wondering if he had any input or effect on this one. Yeah, I don't know, I don't, I do not know the answer. The the interview that I saw was specifically about what happens in season six, although I think I mean in my mind, especially because we paired these two episodes together, like they needed to swing back, because the in devil is as devil does the.
Speaker 1:Chloe makes a very clear equivalence between the cops being the good guys doing it the right way, yeah, yeah. And the extra judicial justice that Lucifer is trying to enact, which I'm not condoning no, okay, me wrong, like actually I don't, I'm not saying that's right either and also like the assumption that because it's not extra judicial, it's therefore right, is like fundamentally flawed, yes, which they at least acknowledge in Superbad Boyfriend, with the story arc of Caleb and and what happens to him. And I mean, and they bring us along, they do acknowledge it and they bring us along because when Chloe says I promise we're going to figure out who did this, and then Lucifer walks up behind Amenadiel, amenadiel says I know who did this and Lucifer says I'll drive, I'll drive, right, and then we see the angel like pummeling the piss out of the murderer of his friend and we're with him, right, like the writers have written it so that we are sympathetic to that extra judicial punishment. But in my mind that was like a direct, necessary kind of correction to the over the propaganda. Yeah, yeah, I mean the propaganda in devil is as devil does is strong, it's overt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we do have Dan as a corrupt cop covering his tracks for a person, but basically a personal vendetta against Lucifer that almost got his own child. Yeah, so it's not like it's not problematized, but it's also not countered. Yes, and the problematizing is very much the, the propaganda that it's one bad apple. Yeah, so that if Dan were to find another job then the LAPD would be just fine, which is for one thing. I want to make sure that I say this the damn expression is one bad apple spoils the bunch. The whole barrel, yes, yes, which is just like. That's the thing that really drives me crazy.
Speaker 1:Me too, it's just like you say, oh, it's one bad apple, whatever, no big deal. I'm like, no, no, no, the whole thing is about if there's one bad apple, everything bad, it spoils the whole barrel because, because I mean, like there actually is whatever the phylloxin biology and like whatever the rat spreads, yeah, it doesn't say contain to the one bad apple, as if you could just pick it out and then it's all good. Yeah, there's a food writer named Helen Rosen, who I love, who, and I can't remember the specific time because there's been so many, but it was probably about George Floyd's murderer. But at some point she said I would like to talk about where the one that apple spoils into our barrel, the idiom, comes from. And she went into the science of it and it was very much, it was very pointed, and yet at the same time it was all in her lane, it was all about food.
Speaker 1:So, anyway, so we get to see in Superbad Boyfriend that this is a systemic issue, because even when, like Dan's like, oh, those hothead cowboys were out of line, she's like, can you say a little stronger than that? And like I'm going to, you know, file a complaint for excessive force. Excessive force, and like when Men of Deals like and what's going to happen because of that? Nothing, absolutely nothing. Because and there is there is some fairness to the idea that human justice is just as imperfect as humanity, which means that we create our own biases over and over and over again. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that, yeah yeah, there was also the moment when, like, a Men of Deals is like is it because of the color of my skin, or whatever? And Dan is like how dare you? Which is totally accurate in the way that that is exactly how he would react.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also like in the original, like at the original air date I'm not sure how much like pushback or greater questioning that moment received. Watching it now in 2022. I'm like shoe fits. I did wonder, because I've mentioned that I really like Latoya Ferguson, who is the writer for the AV club who does the reviews of Lucifer, and she is black and she mentioned about in that scene if there was any aspect of the fact that Dan is Latino, so he is a person of color as well and has also had to navigate racism and marginalization and things like that in that. How dare you? And it made me feel like that could have been a stronger although it wouldn't have made sense character wise, but could have been a stronger message if it had been Chloe saying how dare you?
Speaker 1:just because that is very much what except that it went completely on examines by either of them. Yeah, I'm not sure Like I think it could have been stronger, even with Dan, if it had actually then received any kind of examination from either of them. Yeah, right, like you know, but anyway, yeah, just while I'm drinking my coffee this is really fluff, but I just want to like to bring down the temperature a little bit Ella's mug that has a picture of her on it and then on the bottom Another picture of her, another picture of her. And I was just like where does one find the company that does that? Because I want a mug that I can put something on the bottom of too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was I'm also wearing my new very Ellis shirt. So I was just like, in honor of this, I was like I'll wear my new unicorn 80s style shirt. So, in any case, let's talk about some Jacob Tierenin, the father of the human traffic, or piece of crap, and also what the heck's going on with his office. What is the weird thing? Like what he gets interrupted doing is like dusting the model of a ship with container, like couldn't you have had a? Yeah, what a weird thing. Like he's a CEO, like doesn't he? Yeah, wiping, it's so weird, so weird, which I'm just like I can tell, like I mean, I guess, I don't know, I guess when you have that much money, you don't have to worry about your appearance. But like he was like total, like Bernie Sanders hair and like like crazy eyebrows and like I don't know, he didn't read as like. I mean, I guess he was meant to be like accept, eccentric, billionaire kind of look, but he just read as like well, he had to. Like like a nudist hippie, I mean.
Speaker 2:So oh right, right.
Speaker 1:You know they were no longer together, but like clearly, well, and she was, she was deceased. Yes, yes, yeah. So and I got, I thought I remembered that they were divorced Because otherwise he would have he, if they had been together when she died. Unless she specifically left it to Julian, right, he would have gone to him, but he had taken her maiden name, yeah.
Speaker 1:They were they were definitely. Yeah, that's the Julian had taken her maiden name. Yeah, they were. I definitely think that they were no longer together. Yeah, anyway, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about Jacob Ternan. Yeah, so it's thinking about, like Lucifer's motivation. So he let McCaffrey go because he didn't want to be a monster, and McCaffrey shot rookie Joan, so he went and like broke his back and enjoyed it, and then this other guy, who is at least innocent of having broken his back it sounds like he's a, like drug dealer and you know, not a great person, but still did not break Julian McCaffrey's back is tortured and murdered in retaliation, and so then and it feels like this is the beginning of a downward spiral, because he goes like I did that, and now someone else is dead and it's. I remember I have a friend who's a crime novelist and he said that his, his, in his view, noir is when character makes a bad decision and then keeps making worse decisions trying to fix the first bad decision. And that's what this feels like it could have become, because, like you know, once you went after Ternan, like who knows where that would have led to, but at the same time, every single thing that he does is also very relatable and not justifiable, but like something you could see a person doing to, because they they want to do the right thing. You know it's, it feels like he's trying to do the right thing.
Speaker 1:What's interesting is the tension that I mean especially with inherent in the propaganda and the and the brokenness of the human justice system is, or at least the American one, like you're reminding me that in the previous episode, when he lets Julian go, he has him and he's like pushing his face into like a belt sander or something Like I don't know why that's there, but whatever it is like he's and then he says to him, as he lets him go, let the police deal with you. Like, basically, I'll let the humans do their human thing, which I'm just right now tracking sort of the pendulum of that working and not working. You know, like that's why he led Julian go. Then Joan dies, then Dan is pissed as heck that Joan has died and then he like the whole. I don't know.
Speaker 1:There's just something I think even then the writers were holding in some tension with their vehicle, their propaganda vehicle, that they didn't quite know how to fully resolve. But I do think that it is an interesting kind of, especially in terms of the arc of this beginning of the whole of this season, and particularly these two episodes of Lucifer coming to face his own self loathing and sort of trying to figure out who he is and being afraid of who he is. I think it's really interesting that push and pull of punishing human versus human justice versus all of that kind of back and forth, and in relation to these two women, I mean they were real clear about the angel and devil on your shoulder In Tirenin's office with the angel and the devil on his shoulder, Well, they're even wearing.
Speaker 1:I know Eve was wearing red, was Chloe wearing blue? Chloe's wearing like horizontal stripe and like a blazer, so that she wasn't like in a white dress or something. Yeah, you know even more so, but regardless, it was clear, don't do it. You know like, even like the words they were using yeah, in the superego, duking it out, yeah, yeah. One thing that I think is interesting in this moment in there, when Chloe goes to Ella, and then this is after Lucifer has admitted to Chloe that he broke Julian's back, and actually I want to I do want to give Lauren German a shout out for her acting in that scene, because the reaction was actually felt like really well done, where she's like holding back tears because she's so horrified and yeah, like I really appreciated that. But anyway, so Chloe's kind of like how do I deal with this? I don't understand this.
Speaker 1:So when she asked Ella, you know like, well, you're religious, so you know what's. If there's justice after death, then why are we bothering? And I love both of Ella's responses. One is that, like you know, when I believed in God, I believed that I was doing the right thing to help bring about goodness and justice. And you know they don't have to clean the lawn in Catholicism. But, you know, I assume there's similar ideas and now I'm like we're all we got, so gotta do it. And I really appreciated both of those because it's like there is a little bit of room for understanding that the human version of justice isn't perfect. But it's what we've got and I can do more by trying to work within it than if I just, you know, take a pass and say look like God sort it out.
Speaker 1:I also think it gets to an interesting aspect of Ella's crisis of faith as well, that realizing that we're all we've got is devastating to her, whereas in some ways I find that kind of comforting. Yeah, and again, like there's, there's so many differences between Catholicism and Judaism, one of the big ones being that, you know, and I actually suspect, catholicism is like this too, but Christianity as a whole is not. But believing in God is not necessary to being Jewish, or a good Jew even. And so, like you know, having doubts about whether or not there will be any kind of, you know, cosmic or celestial justice does not affect how I conduct myself as a Jewish person, and I anyway, I just I found that entire scene really really interesting.
Speaker 1:I really felt for Ella because she's like spiraling and you know this person that she really looks up to is doing a Lucifer and making it all about. You know the thing that she's she's ruminating on yeah, so it was really. If I'm going to overthink that particular scene, I know celestial is the adjective that they use on the show. Like, within the world of the show, nobody friggin says that yeah. So if Chloe actually had that conversation with Ella, she wouldn't say do you believe in celestial justice?
Speaker 1:Yeah, she might say divine, yeah, you know, or God, or cosmic.
Speaker 2:You know she's a celestial yeah.
Speaker 1:Like it's just. I mean, I know that is what they use on the show, but that to me that phrase, absent this show sounds like astrology, I know, as opposed to like God and the devil. Yeah, so that like, just as an overthinking moment, like that actual piece of dialogue, just like kind of felt flat for me when she says do you think there's such a thing, because I know you're religious, Like who says that? Nobody friggin says that. It's just not, that's not a phrase. So anyway, that's just like a small overthinking moment for that particular scene. Yeah, yeah, I think one one thing. I will note that on rewatch I didn't, I don't think I picked up on it initially, but on rewatch because I know what's coming Like, in the very beginning of I think it's devil is devil does, oh, I don't know, in the very beginning of one of these episodes, chloe gets a call and she gets angry Like no, I will not accept the call, and it's from father, whatever his name is Um Kinley.
Speaker 1:Kinley I almost said McTavish, because that's the actor's last name. That's bad. I was like Father McTavish no, that doesn't sound right, we don't know that. And it's like such a weird moment. She's like nothing, and then like it comes back and like that is what happened, like that they make that clear, that that's the connection. Like stop calling me or stop asking to speak with me. Um, but in first watch, like I just kind of forgot.
Speaker 2:Like that.
Speaker 1:I did not make that connection, that that I mean they. They stuck it in so that it made sense that she would go to see him to make him stop, you know, to just leave me alone. I give you two minutes where you leave me alone, but in First Watch it was just I was missed on me, it was lost on me. It's the craze I'm looking for, yeah, and it's funny too, because we talked about that prophecy when we talked about the first two episodes and you were like I don't know, it's just like not that interesting, Like it's a flowery. They repeat it over and over again in these two episodes, which is pretty funny.
Speaker 1:I also think one of the things in terms of story, in terms of TV constructing, TV shows, that I think our showrunners did really, really well is the conversation, the cut scenes between Amenezia Lin-Remi and Linda and you're so, and they have that like scary music in the background while Linda's walking. You're like, oh no, Remy's gonna take you or something, and like we didn't. But the way they sort of built the tension so that you thought you knew what was gonna happen and then that didn't happen, was really interesting and satisfying.
Speaker 2:I love that subversion.
Speaker 1:That tension release and that, yeah, that expectation subversion was. I found that very well done. So we don't get to see Trixie much in the season but we do see her in Devil. Is this Devil Does? It's the first time she's seen the Penthouse which I've seen it this time I was just like, oh, is that really the first time she's been to the Penthouse? It must be. I mean, she's been to Lux before, but she's been to Lux before. But then again I'm like you're not gonna let a 10-year-old wander around Lux or Lucifer's Penthouse, or Lucifer's Penthouse, yeah, no, totally fair. So and she does have the kind of reaction like wow, you have stairs up to your bedroom like a princess. Like a princess, like look, there's a hot tub on the roof. What Hot tub on the balcony On the balcony. So I appreciated that scene.
Speaker 1:Now, story construction-wise, that was all about raising the stakes for what Dan had done and all of that and also kind of uniting Eve and Chloe in a way that they were not. But it also I felt like it was very much in character with everyone, with the exception of I don't know that Chloe would make that phone call in front of Trixie. So I think that would have been better if she had like walked in on her, like saying it instead of but whatever 45-minute show, give it to him. But you know that Trixie would immediately be like ears perked up. What's going on with Lucifer? That she would remind her mom, like when someone's going through stuff is when they need a friend most, that she would sneak out because she's done that before.
Speaker 1:That's who she is, that she would like want to know what the hell is this woman all in red doing and question her. And then also that Eve is still able to win her over. She's sitting there like this. It was the like what do you do for work? I don't, I just get to be me. That's actually pretty great. And then I like the other aspect of that scene that I really appreciate is the fact that the second Eve sees that these are dangerous men coming in. She grabs Trixie's hand and puts her behind her, even though there's literally nothing she can do other than be a human shield, and gets her to safety once Lucifer starts doing his glass crashing stuff.
Speaker 1:I also I appreciate the complexity of all of this for Dan's story arc in this season and these two episodes. Like he's actually he is quite a good detective when talking to Ella and she's like, well, I'm sorry to be cleaned. And then he's like, oh, I paid off a cleaning company and got the trash, like, okay, that's going to be something like. And because he's doing this, extra judicious, do judicially, he doesn't need anything more than the fact that it's Lucifer's brand, you know, because he knows he's looking for, for evidence of what he already knows to be true, but because he was not working with Chloe, he didn't know how dangerous Tironan was. So, anyway, all of that I found really really interesting and character driven again, because, like he is, he is an intelligent and diligent detective and he's also corrupt. You know he could. He takes shortcuts, and so he was doing that and he very immediately saw how that shortcut could have like destroyed the thing he loves best in the world, yeah, and then goes out seeking to be punished himself. Yes, and then after sleeping with Ella, after sleeping with Ella, I also want to say I really appreciate and I don't watch like a lot of our long dramas, like I'm thinking like Gray's and Adam. You have never seen, you know those sorts of things. But I feel like in other shows you have two characters get together like that, even if it's just like we're just comforting each other because we're both going through some shit right now, that there wouldn't be something lingering and I feel like I like that. This show was just like yeah, this is, this is a one time thing. That like was just because these two were gone through some stuff and that's going to be it, rather than like maybe there's some shippers out there, we can give them a little loan, you know, because I imagine there could be. I'm sure Dan would object to that. Oh, I didn't even think of that. So so I appreciate that. I appreciated that it's just.
Speaker 1:You know how any long running TV shows get ridiculously incestuous after a certain period of time. Yeah, yeah, because of economy, of characters and the need for new sex pairings. Yes, and I'm not going to say that the show doesn't do that because, yeah, I mean that I think this pairing is a little bit of that, but I think it also was meant to show just how like Lost Lost each of them is, it both are, and that actually that kind of this is the kind of thing that makes sense. When you are feeling that kind of overwhelm, you turn to someone close by. You know, this is where where economy of characters actually makes sense, like you're going to be, like, oh, you're here, okay, yeah, come here, I'm going to be with you.
Speaker 1:So Not touching that one. So, um, I want to overthink a little bit, Like so I really appreciated, especially I ended up watching devil is devil does twice because I watched it and then we canceled and so I watched it again yesterday. And the scene when he says to Eve I need to do this and I need to do it myself and it's important to me. And then he sees his own reflection in the glass and that's just sort of the hint that he checks the wings, but that's the only hint that we get, that that happens, which I actually, I actually quite liked.
Speaker 1:I thought that was really interesting, like making us even subconsciously think about the way he is viewing himself. So I appreciated that and then overthinking it where the hell is Eve when Linda comes with the bat wings? Yeah, yeah, she, she lives in the bed. She doesn't have any place else to be unless she's downstairs drinking, which I guess is possible. But maybe she's asleep, I mean, I guess, yeah, but yeah, I had that thought too, particularly because because devastated was first my favorite the tears that dropped off his nose I'm like he's been sitting there crying and like, yeah, and I think they just got pleased over that Quietly. I mean, he's not like and like, way in the like, like deep in the corner, like let him to look for him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's not like on the couch or in the expected places, he's like against the wall, yeah, yeah. So so maybe because, like you know, he's trying to be quiet, but Maybe, and also I don't know, maybe he doesn't think that Eve would understand. But I think when you are hurting you that much, I just like Well, I'll come back to our conversation about Dan and Ella proximity. Yeah, the thing is, though, she's part of the reason why it's hurting. You know, like, as he says in Superbad Boyfriend, I don't like who I am. I don't like who I am when I'm with you. Yeah, and like and I really appreciate the like you know it's you see the best in me to Chloe. You see who I could be, but I don't know how that makes me feel either.
Speaker 1:It makes me feel yeah, yeah, which is so understandable, oh my God, yeah. And what's really interesting also about that scene is when he tells her like I've broken up with her, I don't like who I am with her, and she's like well, if it's what you want, it's for the best. And he's like it's what I want, and like you could Like there's this suppressed Chloe, chloe like yeah, you're being pulled that off. Yeah, it's just like this subtle, like slightly sitting up, slightly taller, yeah, and so to then be hit with and like I feel bad about myself when I'm with you is like it's totally relatable on Lucifer's part. It's also like got to feel devastating on Chloe's part, like to be like oh gosh, I don't want you to feel terrible.
Speaker 1:And that final scene with Linda, where he's like you know, it's all my father's fault, but and she's, Do you truly believe that? He's like whatever you fiber my being but I also know it's a lie Like wow, like grappling with that is Also the like. You know he feels that there's something rotten at the core of him and that's the that. You know he believes he's evil and he hates himself. And hashtag relatable, I mean, and is that just part of the human condition or is that, you know, late 20th century, late stage capitalism? You know the world's on fire? I mean, I don't think it's just the world's on fire, yeah, like, yeah that. I mean I think about some of the moments in TV that have, like, hit me the most, and they've been when characters have admitted that they hate themselves. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:There's a scene in Mom which is like I mean, it's like a throwaway sitcom, it's on I mean I like Alice and Jenny or whatever name is, but there's this one.
Speaker 1:She's a Kenyan grad. I know there's this one scene. I mean I didn't even watch them all, but it has stayed with me. I watched it four or five years ago. The daughter is like kind of given her a hard time and for not being there or whatever, and at a certain point the mom Alice and Jenny says, if it's any consolation, no one could hate me more than I hate me. And like, oh, I'm getting a little teary, like just like that feeling Sorry. Yeah, well, it's kind of like what Lucifer says about Dan.
Speaker 1:When Dan is like oh, there's just Detective Dan, he's a douche. Again. Like, oh, should we punish him? No, he's very existent, he's existent, he's punishment and it was like he's not wrong and that's. It's particularly when I'm thinking, when Dan is trying to goad Maze into punishing him, hurt him. And when he's like you know Well, if one thing he says like you should have seen how I played Ella, I'm like, yeah, no, that's not what happened, dan. Like you did something that got her uncomfortable and she exited stage, left as quickly as possible because she was uncomfortable, you did not play her. And then, second, he's like asshole, is like us when you just stick together, because he's feeling so terrible about himself and so, and he wants someone else to feel bad and he wants to externalize his bad feeling by being beat up. You know, it's interesting thinking about this theme of hating oneself.
Speaker 1:The first date that we over here with Maze is like a version of herself, right, and she's like look, I'm looking for a real connection. And the woman's like whatever I'm in, you're too clingy, this will never work. Like facing yourself and being like I don't want that. I mean I think these it was, I mean it was there for like laugh, you know, for chuckle factor. But actually there's something really deep and related to all of the other things you know in that. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:Well, and it's it kind of helped explain why Maze is so drawn to Eve, because she seems to kind of she brings out the essence of a person, whoever she is, and so she like brings out the essence of May's in a way that she feels comfortable with. In a way that May's feels comfortable, yes, in a way that May's feels comfortable with. Yeah, so like the role playing, like, okay, pretend we're on a date and she's like oh, this is so hard. You know how, like, how do I do this, how do I do that? And it's still difficult. But she finds it easier with Eve, to the point where you know the handsome guy with the flowers who's her 22nd date. She blows them off and I feel like that is fitting for the characterization they have of Eve, particularly when they talk about how she met every human, every new soul coming through the pearly gates to find out about what their life was like.
Speaker 1:And she's, she's just, she's interested in other people, without putting her own into an interpreter Well, no, that's not true Like because she puts her own interpretation on Lucifer. But she, she is, she is deeply interested in what other people are like, and even like, when, when Trixie asks her what's your favorite color red, what's yours I'm the one asking you questions, lady. But the fact that she immediately is just like tell me yours, I want, I want to know about you. Yeah, all right, I am looking at the time and really think we've been talking for a long minute now. So, unless you have some final like overthinking moments, perhaps we should transition to fluff. No, I don't think that I do. Oh, I do, a menadil giving Caleb his necklace, which we will see come back into a story later but the. I just kind of want to take a moment to appreciate that. That scene, which was when I started sobbing while watching this, just because the kid looks so young. Yeah, he is. I mean, I mean he's 16 maybe.
Speaker 1:And I'm sure, the actor's probably 19 or 20, but whatever.
Speaker 2:No, but the character is meant to be 17, 17 pops.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you know he's a kid and that a menadil says about the necklace and again, this is very good writing, like when to hear the drug dealer asks for it as collateral. He's like this is priceless. My father gave it to me, making it sound like it's not anything he would ever give up. Right, and he does. And then there's the brief moment where he looks up and gives us, as the audience, the reassurance that Caleb is in heaven, which, like, I'm of two minds about, because on the one hand, I'm like I don't like the idea of heaven when you're talking about children dying, because then you can have people. Well, at least they got a happy ending, you know, like at least things are better now and it's just like they're in a better place and like that can be a type of comfort, but it can also be a cop out.
Speaker 1:It's interesting that you read it that way. That is not how I read it. I see that reading and I hear it. I agree with you. That definitely could be an intention or a fair interpretation. I saw it more as looking at his father, like how could you let this happen? Like, especially since the necklace is tied to God, and so by giving the necklace to. Well, I mean giving the child is dead, but by placing the necklace on the body, there is a continuation of the fatherly relationship, since the necklace came from a Mededal's father ie God. But then I saw that look up toward the ceiling as like how could you, yeah, how could you let this happen? How could you let this get this bad? I think that your reading is a fair one, but it was not my initial reading of that I appreciate your reading of it because I find that easier to.
Speaker 1:I want to be angry about the child's death. Yeah, well, and a Mededal is, oh, and I don't think that he's not, it's just They've lost their way and I can't raise a child here. But that's sort of like I think in combination is part of why I read it that way. They've lost their way. But there's also like a how could you let them? Yeah, it was their way. Like this yeah, at least that's the way I read the upturned eyes and this is actually a little fluff from that scene. The body's still wearing what he was killed in, like in the morgue. We know he has parents because Mededal spoke to them. Yeah, he's not going to be buried in that, like what I. I Like if, for overthinking, he wouldn't be in an open drawer with nobody around either. I mean now when I just assume, like a Mededal knows people, so they like open it for him, and then they stepped away to get him to talk, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:All right.
Speaker 1:I did. I midrashed that Fair but the so I guess if I'm going to midrash that I can midrash. Like he said to the parents because he's spoken to them. He would need a lot to me if you would allow Caleb to be buried in the necklace. I think that that's perfectly reasonable. Like and considering what he has done for Caleb and the, I can see in parents.
Speaker 2:No, here's where I may not.
Speaker 1:I mean, I guess they do know some of it because he spoke with them while he was in jail and murdered.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this could be a long episode. We're our long one we need.
Speaker 1:We need to learn to be like more concise. So how does more concise and overthinking it go together? I don't know. I recently have a new client who they are giving me 250 word assignments and I'm like I cannot do that. This is like sweet, I know, I know, and like I really appreciate it. It's a great assignment. It's for AARP. I'm writing for AARP, which is really exciting to me.
Speaker 1:I'm an old but I'm older than you are. So 250 words is just like, like it's like the garnish on a steak. I mean, like I can't get to the steak. It's not even the gristle or anything, it's the garnish. It's really hard. So I'm like writing to the client Like I will do my best to be more, to be less verbose in the future when I am writing assignments for you. I'm like, seriously, I'm an endeavor and I'm a writer who, like when one word could do, I find 17. I'm that kind of writer. So like this is a challenge for me.
Speaker 1:So overthinking does not go with brevity. All right, you know, if you're not into the whole brevity thing. So fluff, fluff, fluff, all right. Gosh, do I have to go first? Do you have any fluff? I'm sure we've got fluff, speaking Tom Ellis as the really bad boyfriend, like wiping the cheese-curled-dust on his t-shirt.
Speaker 1:I would have thought that nothing the man could do would make him less attractive. But I was wrong, because that was gross. That just was gross. I think he's wearing tidy whiteies in that scene as well. I don't know, I have to watch again. I was multitasking. I'm not like it was one of those. I'm not sure. That was something Latoya Ferguson mentioned and I was just like really, and I went back and looked and there's no way of knowing for sure, but you see a lot of leg and I think it's quite possible. So I do want to point out that his fantasy football league was called Show Us your TDs. So Because I was like what is that STDs? I'm like no, that's T. Oh, I get it. Well, I know what T. I knew it was for touchdowns. Oh, didn't get the titties. Well, I got the titties, I got the titties, yeah.
Speaker 2:I got the titties. I got the titties.
Speaker 1:I got the titties. Yeah, I got it, but anyway so, but I found that pretty funny. Oh, also during that montage. Well, for one thing, like I appreciated there's two sides of it. The one side I appreciate that Eve is just like I can play that game. On the other side, and she beat them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, praise, yeah, and like I love that they're both making out with the same woman, like when she comes, and he's making out with a woman it's the same woman that she's making out with when he comes later. So okay, but so on the one hand, like yay, she's beating him in his own game. On the other hand, she's like go do your own shit, eve. That's the whole point. I mean, that's the whole point and that's the whole point. That is. And so it's all very comprehensible and all of that. But yeah, I, just as she says she's awesome, she's more than awesome. There's a light inside her that brightens the entire world and her smile is so infectious and she deserves to be her own person, which she does not know how to be right now, in the same way that he doesn't know how to be his own person either. And it's like, yeah, oh, one more fluff. Linda's reaction to Eve, like don't you hate it when he takes the exact wrong thing from what you said to him? Oh, I know, how have we not met before? This is amazing. Yeah, I love that. I also appreciate it.
Speaker 1:There were two moments where they in these two episodes where the actor had to like show us with their gaze what it was that either was green screen in later or was off camera. So when Amanda Deal watches Remy fly and when Linda is looking at Lucifer's fat devil wings and she's like looking up and like, yeah, which, like that's gotta be hard. In some ways is like super old school, like Star Trek, but also it worked. Yeah, yeah, it did. So that's my final little fluff. Yeah, why are they like this? Ah, sounds good. See you next week. See you next week.
Speaker 2:Our theme song is Ferrel Angel Waltz by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetentcom, licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 4.0 License. Visit the show notes for the URL. I am an artificially generated voice powered by Narakeepcom. Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix. Tracy and Emily are not affiliated with Fox, netflix nor WB. If you liked this episode, subscribe to keep overthinking with them and visit the show notes for other ways to connect.