“Family Dinner” and “Bloody Celestial Karaoke Jam” deliver both some of the funniest and some of the most poignant moments of the whole series.
With a general appreciation for the relatableness of so much of what happens between characters in these two episodes and a very specific appreciation for Tom Ellis’ collarbones, the Guy sisters overthink these two season five episodes.
The sisters spend significant air time enjoying the Gen-X-appealing music, the commentary on parent-child relationships, and the elegance of metaphors made manifest in these two episodes. They also dig deep into the nature of shame and internalized oppression and the significance of Chloe having “faith” that Lucifer is capable of love.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
“Family Dinner” and “Bloody Celestial Karaoke Jam” deliver both some of the funniest and some of the most poignant moments of the whole series.
With a general appreciation for the relatableness of so much of what happens between characters in these two episodes and a very specific appreciation for Tom Ellis’ collarbones, the Guy sisters overthink these two season five episodes.
The sisters spend significant air time enjoying the Gen-X-appealing music, the commentary on parent-child relationships, and the elegance of metaphors made manifest in these two episodes. They also dig deep into the nature of shame and internalized oppression and the significance of Chloe having “faith” that Lucifer is capable of love.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah, the plot which they overthink.
Speaker 2:Hi, I'm here with my sister, Emily Guy-Burken. She does not use a hyphen. I'm here with my sister, Emily Guy-Burken. She does not use a hyphen.
Speaker 3:That's true, and I'm here with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, and she does use a hyphen.
Speaker 2:And together we are Lightbringers where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show. And yeah, we're overthinking it. So much overthinking, and today we are going to overthink episodes 509 and 510, family Dinner and Bloody Celestial Karaoke Jam.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, so in these two episodes we are introduced to Dennis Haysbert as God Almighty, you know it's funny, dennis Haysbert, as God Almighty, you know it's funny. In the rewatch you said this. You said this last time about the Pete episodes, about how, like in your memory, you kind of like forget the like creepy serial killer and you only remember the fun parts, like when Lucifer's like running around in the background trying to test his mojo on everyone. Yeah, I find the same thing about these two where I remember in my memory both of these episodes are hilarious and they are uh, but there's also actually quite a bit of pathos, uh, yeah, like this, like sadness and empathy and like struggle and loneliness that I just forget until I'm sitting in front of the screen again.
Speaker 3:So I I do have to say, even though I knew it was coming the line you do have a futon right Again, just took me out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember that one as well.
Speaker 3:Not only the, the, the line like as written, but how Haysbert delivers.
Speaker 2:Haysbert is so satisfying, as God just has that sort of like. It's not a grin exactly but, just sort of like the satisfied, satisfied smile through most of his delivery. He's very satisfying. Um yeah, yeah. So okay, let's. Let's stay with the first episode, with the family dinner.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:I think it's really interesting that Chloe is so completely embraced the idea that Lucifer projects his own problems onto the case of the week, that she's actually comforted when she realizes that he instantly suspects the family and she's like the family, not the girlfriend.
Speaker 2:She's like okay now, like she's been in this very anxious space since he literally disappeared from her perspective. Just disappeared when he was about to say he loved her in the evidence room, and then she finds him, however long, much later, like reveling at Lux. So I appreciated that, like as a long-time viewer, like I felt, like let's yeah, it happens and she notices it too like let's just run with it and embrace it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, actually I enjoyed that yeah and it she's got this tough line to walk, both the actress and the and and the character. You know cause she has like fallen for this guy who she knows is a bad romantic choice. Um, you know she'd had that conversation with linda. You know, right before they got they they had sex for the first time, where it's just like, oh, he was a narcissist with huge daddy problems and commitment issues and, you know, overgrown teenager and you know all of the different things. So you know she has every right to be furious at him and she makes it very clear like, okay, I'm not going to do that and I am not sure how I feel about that.
Speaker 3:You know, obviously, in the show, as a shipper, I'm like, yeah, let him take the time he needs. It's not about you. But you know, as a woman navigating the world who has consistently been explicitly and implicitly asked to let him have his thing, you know, let him have his freak out or just forgive something, or he wasn't really, he didn't really mean it. It's about his family. It's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm not talking specifically about my current partner, I'm just talking about it in general, you know, cause it's not just about romantic. I mean it's blah blah blah, and I'm not talking specifically about my current partner, I'm just talking about it in general, you know, because it's not just about romantic. I mean it's, you know, at work, it's friends, it's, it's teachers, it's everybody. I like that is frustrating. It's frustrating and at the same time it's it seems that's what would happen.
Speaker 3:You know, that's because we, as women, have been socialized to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had similar thoughts. So I was like I, I don't think she owes him an apology. You know, like, even from her perspective, I don't think she owes him an apology. And, in particular, like I feel like there should have been more. Like, how did you disappear? Like he was there and then he wasn't, like the rest of the people in the precinct thought that there had been an earthquake because the glass had shattered and stuff. But yeah, I, I feel like I agree with you on all counts and I wonder, like if I could, if I could rewrite it, maybe I would push harder on the curiosity. Yeah, and I think that might not have been out of character for chloe decker, who, like, wants to solve mysteries, because we know that he can, like you know whatever, fly and move pretty quickly. But they were standing, you know, really close, and then she blinked and he was gone and that I don't think he's done to her before.
Speaker 3:I will say that, considering where she was, emotionally, I could see her being like I can't poke that, yeah. Emotionally, I could see her being like I can't poke that Like, and feeling like I can't be curious about that Cause I don't. I can't know what happened, because if I do like, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that's why she apologized too, cause it was easy, it was a way, it was a path forward that she had control over. So that makes sense. Absolutely. Yeah, yep.
Speaker 3:Yep, I'd like to talk about the actual dinner.
Speaker 3:yeah, so poor linda when a minute feels like you almost made it I love their, their little interactions because, well, part of what's so great about this scene is that it is very familiar to anyone who's been at an uncomfortable family dinner. And linda is like the person who married in, even though she and amenadiel aren't together anymore, and like they're whispered back and forth like when she she was like I just thank god for napkins. He's like you did better than I would have. Um, that that was really like. It's one of the reasons why this show is so beloved and feels so universal in some ways, even though it's about things that are clearly not universal.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that really struck me in a way that made me change how I think about the character Dennis. Like Dennis Haysbert plays as God, so I think he's supposed to be played, supposed to be like, likable. I mean like it's, for one thing, he's Dennis Haysbert who's just charming. I mean just charming, Charming and handsome and that gorgeous voice and all of that. And then also the way that they've written him is as someone who's well-meaning but kind of screwed up but also kind of didn't it's. Lucifer starts talking about how Amenadiel self-actualized the loss of his powers and his wings, oppression, whether it's something like really structured, like like a religion or cult, or just being a woman in in in in the world, or a black person in America, or anything like that. One of the ways that the you know?
Speaker 2:the structure exerts power is by having you internalize the shame. It's one of the four eyes of oppression.
Speaker 3:I did not know. There were four eyes of oppression.
Speaker 2:Four eyes of oppression internalized, interpersonal, institutional and ideological. Yeah, and the internalized is a. It's a pillar, because that way the oppressor is oppressing even when he's not around.
Speaker 3:Yes, so you're self-policing and you're policing others. And so what got me about that? Because I've always, you know, the first time through that didn't strike me, and I've always liked the, the, this sense that angels self-actualize, um, because it's elegant in a lot of ways in terms of storytelling and also in you know what in this universe this God has created and all of that. It also is clear in the like that God wanted his children to make their own way, and this is one way that happens make their own way, and this is one way that happens.
Speaker 3:But the way that Amenadiel self-actualized feels like internalized oppression because he was feeling shame and that's why he did that, and so I mean, that's where Lucifer's face comes from too. That to me like puts a real sinister cast over dennis haisbert's character in that it had to have like that internalized shame, had to have come from somewhere, and so I thought that it was really well done in terms of like when Lucifer is confronting his father at the dinner table and he's bringing up things that are legitimate concerns with a narcissistic parent, and we don't get any kind of real catharsis in that, that scene and uh, it's, it's, it's a lot and it it had. I. I was wondering how much joe and ildy and the and you know the team were trying to get across in terms of actual bad parenthood, because hazebert is so lovable, whereas in some ways it would be easier if, if god remained absent.
Speaker 2:Uh, in the, in the, the show I read that, you know, earlier in the season in the series they had all. They had never intended to show god, they never intended to show hell either, and they broke both of those as the series went on, which is interesting. In some ways, it would be easier, and I think that's also real Like there are very few people who are truly just bad people. I mean, you and I know one or two, but but there aren't very many in the world who are truly just plain bad people. Yeah, and I think that.
Speaker 2:So that feels sort of accurate, especially since, you know, when Dan is like, he's like above, like petty foibles and stuff, and a minute ago it's like, well, no, I don't think he is, you know, like the reminder that God is one of us, uh, to quote that song. Anyway, what I think is really I'm I'm thinking a lot about metaphor lately, separate and different from Lucifer, I'm just I'm reading a book about metaphor and I'm just like thinking a lot about the ways that we use metaphor humans. Humans use metaphor to learn new concepts, and the thing that's really really elegant and satisfying about self-actualization is that the metaphor becomes real right.
Speaker 2:The elegant and satisfying about self-actualization is that the metaphor becomes real right. The metaphor is actually so like the vulnerability, even talking about vulnerability as a metaphor for emotional closeness, you know. So to make the metaphor, then you know, actualize is really powerful and satisfying, because metaphors are satisfying.
Speaker 1:I think that's.
Speaker 2:Because metaphors are satisfying. I think that's I think it's really fascinating. I think I'm less to me the shame is less damning of Hays for its God than it is for you, because I think that it's a it's, it's a complicated emotion. I agree it comes from somewhere, but it's not entirely, it's not entirely from outside, right, I think there's. There's definitely some internalization and there's some like cooking inside. That happens.
Speaker 3:I think the well, and the the, the fact, that fact that Michael's shoulder is crooked and Lucifer says to him like you know, you got such a chip on your shoulder, a chip manifested it, and then the fact that Lucifer is vulnerable, like physically vulnerable, around Chloe because he's emotionally vulnerable around her, like that to me feels very elegant, although, come to think of it, the reason Amenadiel was, he lost his powers and he lost his wings. I was focusing on the fact that he and Maze had a relationship and it might be that, but he had been responsible for the deaths of some of people, of some humans, in which case I'm kind of okay with feeling shame and manifesting that exactly so okay that that's.
Speaker 3:I had forgotten that, but that's that's yeah.
Speaker 2:So the other thing that's really interesting about the fact that Amenadiel's suffering is what Lucifer brings to his father is that it's Amenadiel's suffering. I mean he does talk about his own, but because Michael brings it up first, you had a kingdom to rule over. You had a kingdom to rule over, right. That's why he brings up how horrible it was to be in hell and to be forced to torture souls. He doesn't bring it up on his own. He doesn't say like I made a bad decision and you cut me off for the millennia. He says look what you did to my brother and let him suffer when you could have eased his suffering. And to me that offers a level of emotional maturity from Lucifer that we don't usually see.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we definitely would not have seen in season one.
Speaker 2:Agreed Not at all he had zero empathy for his brother in season one, I mean, and he does it all while he's shoving food in his mouth and talking with his mouth full, which is really unpleasant. But you know, I said that's sort of that's something that stood out to me, and and then even more so as you were talking about that confrontation. So in that scene, moment of overthinking, we've talked about names before hazeburg and they they mispronounce it. It wouldn't have been Michael, it would have Michael and they don't have the. But even even like an Americanized version, it should be Michael, cause it anyway small thing, uh, maybe even fluff, but it's like as it. As they were like, yeah, I kind of like the sound of that, so my, my mym-i-k-i-l or whatever, yeah, and I was like no, no, no, no, no, no no you know, can we move on from the dinner itself?
Speaker 2:absolutely so. The other moment that I want to talk about and think about is maze, and when maze comes to talk to god, when she's dressed like little red riding hood inexplicably. Um, yeah, that scene again. Like I forget about it when I haven't recently rewatched, I think in part because it is so heart-wrenching yeah that she feels this lack which is ultimately loneliness, and that's why I have a hard time making connections. She says you know, and? And when he says you're perfect, just as you are, like she just can't hear that.
Speaker 3:Well, that's one of those where it can feel like a slap in the face. Yeah, clearly, when you're convinced that there's something wrong with you and someone else says no, of course there's not, and you're like, what's wrong with you that you can't see this, yeah, yeah. And so I mean that's one of the reasons why I love that this show, I feel like for the most part, does such a good job like showing and discussing mental health, even when it's not doing it directly, because that is a very clear. I feel like I've mentioned this at some point before, but it reminded me of how, after Robin Williams died, I was reading an opinion article by a comedian talking about how you know that a comedian considers you a friend when they're not funny in front of you and you know, and if you are like, hey, where's the, where's the funny guy? Or something like that, they'll put the mask back up and you and it will be a complete surprise.
Speaker 3:Now, with with Williams, there was clearly something the Lewy body dimension, all of that which was only somewhat related to, to, like, his lifelong depression. But I'm just thinking about that. That's like when she takes off the the, I mean, she shows her her real face, demon face, and and says like, do you think this is perfect? That is so real for someone who is experiencing self-loathing in that, like you know, how can you possibly think that I'm perfect, just as I am, when I'm this horrible creature? And in part because God is so remote, and this is the first time she's, I think, met him, it's going to be impossible to take that from him, whereas I feel like if Amenadiel had said it, she might have been able to hear some portion of it. Maybe, maybe it's, but yes, that was. That was just heartbreaking. I also, I have to say I love the through line of him always having the exact right drink for someone.
Speaker 2:When she like it's all right. And then he turns his back and he's just like oh funny, I don't. And Leslie and Brant like the way that she like, just like I think your whole mouth in that like martini glass. That was pretty great, oh my.
Speaker 1:God, that was great, that was so good, you know.
Speaker 2:Then the next scene, when we see her talking to Michael at Lux, like we already don't like Michael, the writers have already given us plenty of reason to despise Michael, which, you know, lucifer makes clean when he says what Michael has done since he's been on earth. And again in that scene I mean there's, there's a moment of connection between him and maze over their disdain for God which, like, makes him all the more despicable because, not only because we're well, they're planting the seeds so that we can start to realize that not only is he duplicitous with his siblings and and humans, he's also being duplicitous with his father, which I don't think. I think that's the first time we see that seed.
Speaker 2:They, like we may be suspect that he's not being fully truthful, like surely he didn't tell God that he was going to go down and like try and break Lucifer's life before he left the silver city. But you know that I'll go, I'll stay with you and let like, let's go back, like all that. And then we just saw when, uh, hayesworth scott says that's a bad idea to go home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I don't think. I think the conversation with maze then makes that converse, the conversation with dad, all the more smarmy, which is really an interesting also set up for us around Haysbert Scott, that cause, you're not sure, does he know, does he not know? And that adds to the layers of complexity that they're trying to give us with him by having him banish I'm putting quotes around that, michael, while sticking around to spend time with Lucifer.
Speaker 3:Anyway, I, you know, the thing that struck me in that scene is even as despicable as Michael is. Scene is, um, even as despicable as michael is. It was proof that maze is not correct when she says she can't connect with people, because she does connect with michael and in a genuine way, like not like he's not playing her at that point, right, um, even though he's always playing somebody and he connects with her in a way that she can hear and she's like, oh, what, you come to say goodbye. He's like, well, all the people, I don't entirely hate you, which is like high praise for Maze and like, oh, he's all right.
Speaker 3:And I found that scene watching it again this time, I found it Endearing is too strong. Scene. Watching it again this time, I found it endearing is too strong. But it was like there's, there is something in michael that is worthwhile in that he did make sure to talk to maize because she was someone he had connected with for whatever reason. And that's like, as ickish as Michael is and as despicable as he will become, you know, we know what's coming up there's still the opportunity for growth, there's still the opportunity for him to become better than what he is and I appreciate that just because that's. That's what the show is about that's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that is the undercurrent of the whole show. Absolutely, absolutely, yeah. Let's move on to the other episode, the bloody celestial karaoke jam so this is like kind of fluffy, but that first scene when he's singing the wicked ways, wicked game. Yeah, wicked game.
Speaker 2:Right, thank you uh when he kicks over the, the, the bench piano bench oh so I I saw um, they actually the director wanted it like they had to film it in slow-mo because of the spin, so he actually was singing in double time, so that I mean, I think that they overdub him singing in a studio. Absolutely, yeah, but he was singing in double time so that the lips would match. When they slowed it down to slow-mo, wow right, that's so cool, I know. Yeah. So the direct like well, the the thing that I saw that talked about it the director was like yeah, he's such a trooper. I told him we had to do it double time and he was like okay, well, the director is sherwin shalotti, who he?
Speaker 3:he's the one who did um god johnson back in season two I think um where, and. And he did that gorgeous like panning shot of of the chaos and then, yeah, the chaos and the psychiatric ward. So I was like, okay, yeah, that that fits, that this is is he the one who did the one with um detective?
Speaker 2:amenadiel? Is that he the I?
Speaker 3:don't know. You know what I meant to look, Because I think he's also the one who did. You can't just go in there and say, hello, drug dealers. He's like I never do that. And then he did it in Korean. I think he's the same director of that All right, pause, I'm going to look it up.
Speaker 2:Okay, so it's not the same guy as the detective amenadiel episode. That was nathan hope. I was wondering because there's a similar moment of the camera sort of following and turning upside down, which, like I, I would never have picked up on that in my first run through, but watching for these for you and I.
Speaker 2:You know, in my conversation I noticed those sorts of directorial, directorial choices, and it was interesting in this case because we've that tree like chandelier yeah, has been a focal point often throughout the the previous five seasons, and so that upside down scene we've seen, we've seen the reflection of it to make it right set up as a tree. It's been there a lot, and so to have it flip upside down here, I was like what does that mean? Because I'm overthinking it, I don't know. I don't know what it meant, but I noticed it.
Speaker 3:I would like to have an overthinking logistical moment. So Lucifer wakes up, he sings Wicked Game game beautifully, I might add and his father comes in. We're never entirely clear. If he was would have sung that on his own, or if that was God it? We're told it's four in the morning.
Speaker 2:He gets a text and then she says I'm surprised you're here, it's been four hours.
Speaker 3:I noticed that too now here's the question I have when was that guy killed?
Speaker 2:there and all those people were there at a game at four in the friggin morning. That seems unlikely.
Speaker 3:I think that was a mistake yeah, because I was, because I was sitting there thinking I was just like, okay, even if it had happened overnight or like the night before, let's say like 8 pm game, 9 pm game, maybe even late, maybe it was and and they were like be there, well, I was thinking they'd be there if they needed to. So let's say it was a late game. Okay, it took a minute for them to realize this was a murder and not just a death, because they said I thought he was.
Speaker 2:Ella figured out it was a murder.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So if they knew it was a murder, I could understand them saying nobody can go anywhere, we gotta interview everybody. I could see that, but not for 12 hours, and like I don't know how hot it is in Los Angeles and I don't know what time, what time of year this is, but like those, those cheerleading outfits do not cover much. And if they were sitting outside overnight?
Speaker 2:you know, also, like, logistically, if they thought he was having a heart attack, they would have done CPR and whoever gave him mouth to mouth would have also been poisoned. That is a good point, if I mean assuming they didn't have one of those bags. But yeah, yeah, if they thought he was having a heart attack, he would have been, he would have been at the hospital.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And been on the field yeah and that you know I texted you four hours ago. That whole timeline just does not make. Does not make sense. I have a feeling there was like a different storyline, like maybe another text that we that ended up on the cutting room floor or something, because it just didn't make sense, does not make sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, and it was like they needed everyone to be there so that they could have the big musical number. Obviously, yeah, um, but I'm wondering like if, if his murder had been accomplished in a different way, it would have made more sense, or if it had been like clearly murder and like the same night, or it was a day game.
Speaker 2:yeah, something, something about that whole sequence. Like isn't I? It's missing, I think I I have our writers are too good to have not seen that. I have a feeling something ended up on the cutting floor that would have made sense of that. Yeah, like, maybe there was a text at four in the morning from her Cause she was clearly up that he ignored, and maybe there was another one you know at, and now it's noon. Yeah, something like that. Something like that, yeah.
Speaker 3:Cause it doesn't.
Speaker 3:I agree, yeah. So if it were like a Saturday morning game at 10 AM, yeah, yeah. So I do want to say all right. So the musical numbers we have Wicked Game by Chris Isaac. We've got Queens, another One Bites the Dust. We've got Every Breath you Take by the Police, but sung by Debbie Gibson. We've got In the Afterlife by the Squirrel Nut Zippers. And then there's that mashup of Bad to the Bone and Scrubs, tlc's Scrubsippers. And then there's that mashup of bat to the butt, oh, bad to the bone and scrubs, tlc scrubs, um. And then there's a dream to dream from. Uh, what is that? Yeah, it's, it's from les mis. It's, uh, fantine's song. Basically, this is again clear to me.
Speaker 2:Gen xers are making this tv gen xers.
Speaker 3:It's just like, oh, bless you, and they may even be. They may be even be like oregon trail generation, like us, or like not quite full gen xers. But uh, definitely in high school in the 80s and 90s yeah, late 80s, early 90s, yeah, late 80s and early 90s at the latest, and I love it so much. Particularly, I remember seeing people talking about this episode and they're like I don't know that In the Afterlife song and I was just like, oh, clearly you were in high school in 1996. Like how did you not know this song? Do you not remember the Swing revival in the mid-90s?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, what. We were all trying to put our boots back on, yeah.
Speaker 3:So I just, it's one of those things where, like Gen X is often forgotten about. You know, you see, like you know, it's Millennials versus Boomers. We're like, hey, that's okay, we'll let ourselves in and get ourselves a snack, it's well, we've been doing it for forever right, we were the latchkey generation. So, like whatever squabbly all you want, we're gonna be over here making ourselves a grilled cheese and watching mash on reruns the afternoon while we do our own work right, we raised our own damn selves.
Speaker 3:We did but so, and I like this is one of those things. I don't I don't know if this is actually true, but it sometimes it feels like there are things that are, like, meant to appeal to boomers and they're like there are things that are meant to appeal to millennials, they're like oh yeah, this is gonna. You know, just shove this in, they're gonna love it, and so, like this, I'm just like I'm okay with being appealed to my turn damn it I'm down with this music.
Speaker 3:So, um, yeah, I, I actually I was singing along as I watched. Yeah, I was singing along as I watched, yeah, yeah, I also, I do want to talk about, at the very end, what was really, and so we don't get into the specifics Exactly here, but this is again as talked about mental health. It's it's like a, an adult child, seeing their parent experience dementia or Alzheimer's or something along those lines, or just losing mobility, losing independence.
Speaker 2:Decline in general.
Speaker 3:Yes, and the way that Tom Ellis is able to go from angry, overwhelmed with sadness, resentful at what his father has done to him, to like, oh my God, dad, are you okay? With one word and his face yeah, and I also. It reminded me of how growing up partially is about learning that your parents are real people and recognizing that you know they do the best they can, but they're they're. They're people they're. You know they're flawed human beings. And so you go from you know, a child who is like worshiping your parents, to like the teenager who's rebelling against them, to an adult who's, like you know, counting on them, to in some way or another, to like recognizing like, oh gosh, this is, they're not eternal and that that is uh like.
Speaker 2:he instantly wasn't worried about his resentments anymore the complication of their relationship actually across these two episodes is really interesting too, where he in in the previous episode he recognizes that. I mean he says at the dinner table, if all the apples are rotten, maybe there's a problem with the tree. And then when he they, when they, when they catch the killer and it turns out to be the girlfriend, and the dad is also there.
Speaker 2:And because the dad sacrificed himself because he was afraid he'd lose another child, and so did his kid and he's. And then he's sort of like she's like get the gun, because he's like off in his head, and that's that's the moment he's realizing, that's the moment the character is realizing that he is incapable of loving. That's what he thinks, because he told his father his father was incapable of loving.
Speaker 3:That's what he thinks because he told his father, his father was incapable of loving.
Speaker 2:And then he said the thing about the tree and the apples, and so that that was actually beautifully written, so that I could, so that I could string those breadcrumbs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, that, that true line is very clear.
Speaker 2:And then he says that to to Chloe episode, and, and and now in this, this second episode, in the karaoke jam, at that very end where you're talking about, where Ellis so beautifully brings us along on a quite a long emotional journey very, very quickly, um, from one to another. I mean there's there there's something really similar to about like the push and pull of the ways in which we are alike and not like ways we are the same and separate from our parents. That I think is really human and resonant and interesting. That I really appreciated in that that in these two episodes and further, the power of chosen family too. I mean, even in chloe, when she's like no, I don't believe it, and the way she says I have faith in you is like it's a thing that we one might say to someone out, to a you know, a friend, a human, I just remember another song.
Speaker 3:So, uh, just the two of us, but the the will smith version oh, there's also the one that um trixie sings.
Speaker 3:Oh yes, yes, that's an old standard with you. Yes, sorry, sorry, I just it hit me because I was thinking about, um, like, parenting and and family, and ameniel saying like let me be mortal instead. And so one of the things that I found really odd in parenting was when, like my particularly my eldest was tiny, like I knew he was separate from me, I knew he was a different person from me, but it wasn't until he he went to a language intensive preschool when he was like two and a half three years old and he went on. He took a bus to go and he was so excited and I wasn't there with him and I wasn't experiencing it with him. And that was the first time it really hit me as like he is his own person doing his own thing.
Speaker 3:That is not about me and like, obviously you know, like, of course, but there was, there was this emotional sense of like, of a separation that had not been there before. And I was reminded of that with Amenadiel, like you know, like let me be the one who is mortal because there is this sense of like. I am my child, my child is me, I will take on what is difficult so my child doesn't have to have it. My child doesn't have to do it.
Speaker 2:You know, interestingly in these two episodes we get sort of spectrum of that you know from from a mena deal which is if, if feudal, maybe also healthy. Um to debbie gibson's character oh, yes, where she's still so wrapped up in them being the same person she doesn't even know who is who her son is who the? 17 year old kid is yeah. Who is her son?
Speaker 3:JJ yeah, and that's. That's one of those things where, like I, I remember when that happened and I had that like that odd feeling and it was uncomfortable and I remember thinking like, oh, I can kind of understand how, like overbearing and narcissistic parents can can do that is because, like when that happened, it was uncomfortable and I was like I just need to embrace this because this is what I'm doing, this is what the point is. You know, and you know other folks who aren't as introspective or are more, more uncomfortable with discomfort might be like Nope, they're me, I'm them, you know, but that's yeah, it's uh. What's also interesting is that that also kind of from the other side of it. You know Lucifer as the child is. You know I've read that.
Speaker 3:You know very tiny children have trouble differentiating between themselves and their caretakers. You know when it makes sense, and so this like separation that Lucifer and Dennis Haysbert's character I struggle to call him, god, right, I have have gone through is it's kind of like the. You know the realization that they're there. They are separate. You know the child's realization they're separate, which I suspect must be kind of traumatic, depending on how it happens and when it happens. And then moving through, like all of the stages of anger and resentment and all of that, and then the reminder again, but that they. There is a separation between them, but they are connected. When seeing a parent's vulnerability, just to overthink it a lot, parents' vulnerability, just to overthink it a lot. By the way, part of the reason why I struggle to call Dennis Haysbert God is because God's pronouns are God, so I do not like using he, him pronouns with God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. I actually I want to come back to something I was talking about, though yes, I'm sorry, I interrupted you in them when Chloe says that she has faith in.
Speaker 2:Lucifer and the significance. I mean, that is a sentence that I might say to another, to a friend, right? And also, she's not just saying it to another human being, she's saying it to the devil. And I think there's something really fascinating and interesting about saying to the devil I have faith in you, in particular, because what she's saying is I have faith that you are capable of love. That's what she's saying to the devil, and the use of that word faith, I don't think is coincidental or accidental on the part of our writers. It may be on the part of Chloe Decker, but not on the part of our writers.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I, I find that really fascinating and very satisfying and I think it actually gave him. I, I don't know. I want to go back and rewatch that scene now that I'm talking about it, because it goes pretty quickly where he just he just feels overwhelmed and and like he's disappointing her, he's letting her down and he knows it and he just, he just feels like his it's just, he just feels broken. I mean clearly, because in the next scene his dad says I can't fix you.
Speaker 2:And he says you can't or you won't, right and and like the reaction is I don't need to be. The reaction is not I don't need to be fixed. He wants to be fixed. He thinks that, he thinks he's broken. So having her say that I don't know I. There's something like deeply beautiful to me about having this human being who we've established is one of the few who can actually see him. Yes, yeah, say it in that way. Not just I love you, I have faith in you. I think that's really significant and, like I, just if y'all ever see it, like Joe LD, whoever wrote this, I saw it and it's beautiful and thank you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, I, you. It made me realize that how, how similar maze, maze's story and Lucifer's story are in these two episodes. Cause she's having the same reaction Like I, I. There's something wrong with me. I can't fix it. You need to fix it.
Speaker 2:And and and and. The connection is what's missing? Right, I'm broken. She's saying I'm broken because I don't have a soul. That's why I can't connect. He's saying I'm broken because I'm his kid and I'm incapable of love. But both are saying, you're right, Different versions of the same thing. Yeah, I'm incapable or I'm unworthy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. And what's interesting is that the reaction like Haysbert's reaction in both cases is is like that's you know you, you are you, and so when, like when he says I can't fix you, it's because there's nothing to be fixed and that's I don't know. There's there, there is something to like him saying you wanted his kids to have free will and you know part of what's going on here is is like you know there's nothing to be fixed and you also need to to work this out on your own. You need to be an emotional latchkey kid.
Speaker 2:Well, you have to I can't fix you I. He says I can't fix you, lucifer, only lucifer can fix lucifer, because there's nothing wrong with lucifer we're both back and forth muting our mic because of the loudness in our houses. Maybe that's a sign from the universe that it's time for us to say we've overthunk it enough.
Speaker 3:Do you have any?
Speaker 2:fluff you want to share.
Speaker 3:I do. I've got one piece of fluff which is it's one of those like it's a continuity issue in Family Dinner. At the end, lucifer takes off his tie and he gets up and he throws it on top of the platter of chicken.
Speaker 2:I thought that was his napkin.
Speaker 3:It was a tie, and I know because I went back cause I was just like what the heck is that? And like it was gross to me out that he put it on the platter of chicken too, cause I'm like and what? And then the very next scene, like like it's, it's less than five seconds later, the platter is moved further to the left and the tie is on the table to the right of it, and I was just like, oh, I wish I hadn't noticed that I, yeah, I saw him through.
Speaker 2:I I read that as a napkin, but I did see him take the tie off because he's like I'm done with this and he like starts taking the tie off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, I don't know if this counts it's so loud here. I don't know if this counts as fluff, but the scene when Dennis Haysbert comes in with the tray, the breakfast tray, and Lucifer sleeping on his tummy on the couch, naked, and he sits up and so we're just like graced with this, like chest and collarbones and like that's my sexual orientation, that scene with the chest and the collarbones and the coffee and the like, there's just one piece of hair.
Speaker 3:Yes, and when he is like it's a little bit better Like the noise he makes, yes.
Speaker 2:That's it. That is my current sexual orientation. It may change, but right now that's it.
Speaker 3:Can I just say, just overthinking it, he's like dad and I'm like. You're sleeping on the sofa in an open plan.
Speaker 2:And we know he has pajamas because we saw them when he was playing like a game, like put on your pajamas, I'm like why are you sleeping naked when your dad's right there? It's like 15 feet away. I mean it was a nice funny scene because, like I've seen naked, if I had a nickel for all this. Yeah, that was very funny. And also we know he owns pajamas. We've seen him recently, yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:One other thing I do want to mention real quick is ella trying to get back to her normal self after everything's happened. I wish that she had we'd given her a little bit more time in these couple of episodes, but I really appreciated the conversation that dan has with her and the fact that when he's like he had all of us fooled and she's like oh yeah, yeah, of course that's right, cause you slept with him too, and like she's like, yeah, dan, that's that's not helpful. You know, she, she has a very different experience and like, honestly, I don't know how one gets over the ick factor of knowing that you were intimate with someone who was that evil. But I like Dan's trying and I appreciate it, I really appreciate that he's trying. So I just wanted to give a little moment to that, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. And the way that like, in fact, the way that Ella is like talking about it, is like they don't, her friends don't know what to do or say you know, and she's like oh, I know who did it. Just introduce me to all of the suspects and whichever one I'm most attracted to, that's the one that did it Like, yeah, I don't blame Ella for saying or thinking or feeling that way and also like I also don't blame her friends for, like, not knowing what to say.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I also. I appreciated where, like Chloe's, like Dan, go home, and he's like, oh, I need to work. And he's like you were kidnapped, you should stay home. And then they're like, at least Ella's at home, oh, it's Ella. And they're like we're not going to argue with you.
Speaker 2:Really, I have like five or six documents. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really think we should call it. I'm calling it.
Speaker 3:Okay, have we overthunk it enough? We have overthunk it. Oh my goodness, so much overthinking.
Speaker 1:Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom, licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 4.0 License. Visit the show notes for the URL. I am an artificially generated voice powered by Narrakeepcom. Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix. Tracy and Emily are not affiliated with Fox, netflix nor WB. If you liked this episode, subscribe to keep overthinking with them and visit the show notes for other ways to connect.