“A Little Harmless Stalking” & “Nothing Lasts Forever” are ripe for overthinking, and the Guy girls do.
These two stories invite meditations on the reconciliation of adult children and their parents, a scene that has become common in contemporary pop fiction, and which Tracie & Emily dub psychological or family dynamic fiction: art that creates an aspiration that isn’t true, yet, but could be because of the art.
As is often the case in Lucifer, upon deeper reflection, the overlapping lines of connection between the characters is a bit unsettling as we realize that Eve and Maze together means the latter is dating her ex-husband’s ex-wife’s daughter.
Emily analyzes Ella’s “darkness” and names it intrusive thoughts, which she wishes the show itself had done.
Tracie is disappointed in the off-brand nature of the joke of Handjobiel’s name, and both sisters linger over what it even means for God to retire from a universe that was made by God but also is God.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
“A Little Harmless Stalking” & “Nothing Lasts Forever” are ripe for overthinking, and the Guy girls do.
These two stories invite meditations on the reconciliation of adult children and their parents, a scene that has become common in contemporary pop fiction, and which Tracie & Emily dub psychological or family dynamic fiction: art that creates an aspiration that isn’t true, yet, but could be because of the art.
As is often the case in Lucifer, upon deeper reflection, the overlapping lines of connection between the characters is a bit unsettling as we realize that Eve and Maze together means the latter is dating her ex-husband’s ex-wife’s daughter.
Emily analyzes Ella’s “darkness” and names it intrusive thoughts, which she wishes the show itself had done.
Tracie is disappointed in the off-brand nature of the joke of Handjobiel’s name, and both sisters linger over what it even means for God to retire from a universe that was made by God but also is God.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah, the plot which they overthink.
Speaker 2:I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken.
Speaker 3:She does not use a hyphen, it's true, and I'm here with my sister, tracy Guy-Deurken. She does not use a hyphen. It's true, and I'm here with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker she does use a hyphen.
Speaker 2:Yep, and together this show is Lightbringers, where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show and, yeah, we're overthinking it so much. And today get to overthink, uh, episodes five 13 and five 14, a little harmless stalking and nothing lasts forever. And um, so I I just have to like preface this so that our listeners know like I screwed up when I was like watching and so I watched five 13 and five 15. And then you and I got together to record and I was like, did I miss something? What happened to this and what happened to that? And so I went back and watched. So I've, you know I'm, I am on the right page, but my experience of five 14, nothing lasts forever is like colored by having recently rewatched the next episode, which is much, much darker.
Speaker 2:So I'm not looking forward to 515 yeah, our next episode uh, for these last, the last two in season five, is gonna be a little grim okay, but we'll get there when we get there. So I'm just, I just am like framing sort of part of my approach today to these two episodes, but let's actually dig into them. So let's start with a little harmless stalking, where we get some interesting Linda. We get some interesting Linda. Facetime, which is kind of cool, where she has stalking her biological daughter who doesn't know she exists, and gets kind of mixed up in some trouble and then hijinks ensue. So that's sort of the backstory and there's a there's like the opportunity for linda to not be the compassionate receptacle, the therapist yeah, you know there's.
Speaker 3:I mean she, she's, she's los angeles's only therapist. But yeah, she even like at the very beginning of the show she's talking to maize on the on her cell phone in the car and she's therapizing. I, she's. Yeah, it's a consultation, she's counseling, which I've never been friends with a therapist before Exactly Not. I mean, I have a friend who's a art therapist, which is a little bit different, and you know, we have a cousin who who is a therapist, but I've never been friends. She's a sex therapist.
Speaker 3:So yeah it doesn't come up. She's awesome. So I don't know if that is a common role that a therapist would fall into, because I feel like it would be overwhelming.
Speaker 2:A little busman's holiday too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but at the same time, how would you not? You know someone's coming to you saying these things. It would be hard not to like go into, like well, how's that make you feel?
Speaker 3:And you know, I'm really proud of you, and those sorts of things and are an actual therapist, but a therapist who does the kind of talk therapy that Linda does how that works out for them. Because I wonder if it's like my friend who's a comedian, who doesn't want to be the person who's like, hey, be funny, you're the funny guy at parties. You know, because that's my job. I'm a person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, you wanted to talk about the. In this episode there's a scene where Eve and Maze take on the big scary guy. Big scary guy, yeah, oh, yes, and you wanted to talk about that sort of like the slight woman fighting the big guy and sort of that trope and how we view it. So you had a demon and, within the canon of the story, she can't be harmed by a human, the way that a human woman of her size would appear to be harmed.
Speaker 3:We've seen her get hurt and stuff like that. It's not that she can't be, it's just that there's the superhuman aspect to Maze. Eve though there is something a little bit magical about her, cause she was able to slip right back into her old bones is simply a human. So she she bleeds like a human, she can die like a human. She is, you know, she can break like a human, and we even see that when she and maze fight afterwards she's like and cause she's putting the peas on her, uh, on her head, and stuff like that.
Speaker 3:Something that has bothered me for a long time is there's this assumption that women can't fight. And it's not that women can't fight, it's that women can't fight like men fight, so, and Eve does a really good job of illustrating that. So Maze is engaging the big scary guy and Eve is looking to go to help. But she's in Bar-La-Vie, is the same height as me, she's five foot four, so she's not a super tall person and she is a very slight woman, while I have no doubt that she has pretty, pretty good muscle tone and all of that. This you know, I don't know, six foot, 200 pound guy, you know, like if she's trying to like box with him, that's not going to work. So she does something very intelligent and she climbs up the shelving, the warehouse shelving, and jumps on him. Because, yeah, that is the way to do it.
Speaker 3:And I was reminded of there is a movie called Atomic Blonde with Shirley Theron. Came out like four or five years ago, maybe longer, and Shirley Theron is a spy. She's fighting people in 1980s era Berlin, and she's sometimes taking on like two or three men at once and it is like 200 pounds, six foot tall, like hardened boxers, and what she does is she uses her environment to help her fight because, again, like if you're just like I punch, you punch, it's she's, she's not gonna win. So there's there's one like she's in a stairwell and she gets to a place where one of her sides is protected and she gets a lamp and is's not how you're supposed to fight, or that's. You know, there's something wrong with using your environment rather than just yourself, whereas there is this level of cunning and intelligence and strategy strategizing necessary to do all of that.
Speaker 3:And I just, I, like, I love that this show gave us an opportunity to see that. You know, we see, I mean Chloe's a badass. We have seen her never quite in like a fight but, you know, like in in difficult situations and can handle herself. Maze obviously is amazing. But again, she's not supposed to be human. So getting to see Eve do this in a way that is like true to how a woman who looks like her would be a bounty hunter, I thought was phenomenal and I wish we would see more of it and normalize the fact that the way that a woman who is built like in Barlavi would fight is going to be different from how a man would fight, or even a woman who is taller and and broader would fight, and that it is perfectly reasonable and acceptable for that to be a fighting style.
Speaker 2:And yeah, you know it's interesting that she gets. She gets like in the story, she gets punished for it, she takes a bullet for it. So, yes, interesting, which I I didn't put for it. So that's an interesting which I I didn't put put it together in that way until I'm listening to you talk about it, you know.
Speaker 3:But even, even it's hard to say, you know, this is one of those things where because something happens so rarely, so seeing a woman fight when we get like anything that happens in the story is representative, whereas if this were, you know, just a tuesday, because like we see it in every episode of lucifer, it would be like oh no, this is just, you know, the plot needed it, because then maze yeah, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:and and like in the next episode that we're pairing together, like there's the scene in the whatever the Japanese tea house is where Lucifer's fighting the guy in the red with the, the, the bamboo swords, and then the guy throws the bamboo sword away and pulls an actual samurai sword and Lucifer says, well, this is not a fair fight, let's make it fair. And he throws his bamboo sword away, away and like gestures with his bare hands, yeah, which is sort of like the hyper masculine opposite of what you're talking about. Like not only is he going to fight the right way, like he even needs fewer, fewer weapons than this other guy, and so like, based on your analysis, based on your analysis, and with these two together, and that fighting scene that we see in the very next episode, like I sort of think eve got punished for it yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 3:I'm also thinking because I just recently watched Princess Bride again for the unbelievably unnumbered times time, and the scene when Fezzik and the man in black are fighting it's like it's more sportsmanlike. According to Fezzik, you know no tricks, no weapons, skill against skill alone.
Speaker 2:You know, you mean you put down your rock and I put down my sword and we try to kill each other like civilized people yeah, well, actually what's really interesting about that is that physics says skill against skill, but that's not what he means, right, he means like hand to hand, like physical strength against physical strength, because part of like the man in black wins because of strategery yeah, yeah, well, and that that's like part of the skill that eve has in this episode and part of the skill that charlie's throne character's character has in this episode, is the situational awareness, yeah, which someone who is, you know, six foot tall and 200 pounds, like it's.
Speaker 3:It's the old joke where does a 600 pound gorilla sleep? Wherever he wants to doesn't need situational awareness, um, and the the importance of situational awareness. You know this. This comes back to my, one of my favorite statistics in my, my, my day job, the, the the thing I do for real because I write about finance.
Speaker 2:This is real. This is real, but nobody's, but nobody's paying us for it. Nobody's paying me for this yet.
Speaker 3:Yet is the fact that women are statistically better investors than men. Now, there are a couple of things that go into that. Some of it is that there are fewer women investors than there are male investors, and it's because women tend to their money is going to families, is going to support people, stuff like that, so they don't have it left over to invest. Women tend to be a little more nervous about investing, whereas men will be like oh, I hear good things about this and jump in, but that is actually why women are better investors, because when they do, they're like I'm not sure about this, so I'm going to do my research, whereas men are like I got a hot tip over the water cooler, let's go all in Dogecoin, and so.
Speaker 3:So that, to me, is like part of what's interesting about seeing Eve fight is that she has situational awareness, which she has learned because she has been shut out of traditional fighting because she's not six feet tall and 200 pounds, in the same way that women have, like situational awareness of their money that they have had because they have been told don't worry, you're pretty little head. The men are talking about money, and so it's this amazing thing where something that is a kind of a handicap. You know people are like, don't you worry about it? Or like, oh, you couldn't fight, you're too little, or whatever becomes what you use to defeat people who underestimate you, right, right so, but you do make a good point about how, like the, the, the show does immediately pull the rug out from under that by having her get shot, which is a shame.
Speaker 2:So let's let's talk about mothers and daughters. Yes, In this episode, yes, cause we've got Linda and and her biological daughter. Like, we have that beautiful mirroring when, when lucifer asks, what do you really desire from each of them? Linda wants to protect her daughter and, uh, adriana wants to protect her mom, but she doesn't mean linda, she means her adoptive mom. But it is still nevertheless a beautiful mirroring of that, yeah, yeah, that deepest desire that he pulls from each of them, and that's sort of an interesting moment. And what are the other mothers and daughters that you wanted to unpack, maze?
Speaker 3:and Lilith. So we don't see Lilith, obviously, but when she tries to give Eve the ring, that has Lilith's immortality in it and she's like you know, she stayed away from me but at least I have this of her and what it can do is protect me from pain, and Eve very clearly me from pain, and Eve very clearly rejects that, and for good reason. You know that this is not about Eve, this is about Maze and in some ways this is also about Maze's sense of abandonment because of her mother. Like I can't I had to live without my mother, I can't live without you, the love of my life, and so it's a kind of a retread of that trauma. Maze is completely comprehensible, like I totally understand why she acts the way she does, and Eve's strength in rejecting this offer is also amazing. I want to highlight I love that Eve says mortality is a gift, because it's something that I truly believe, although it's a little undercut by the fact that she knows that there's life after death.
Speaker 2:There's something really weird and interesting about the triangulation, too, of Lilith, eve and maze, because Lilith and Eve are rivals of a sword, right Like she is Adam's ex, both like in the source text and within this universe I was.
Speaker 3:I was thinking. There was a moment where I had this thought like holy cow, this show is very incestuous. And then I was like, well, the Bible is too Like the, the original original source material. It really is too, cause I I I had that thought as well Like, so Eve ends up with the daughter of her father, ex-husband's, ex-wife. Yeah, I'm like can you imagine that in the real world?
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, soap opera, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that also, like as I was watching in this rewatch. I don't think I saw it in the first time, but in this rewatch I also was thinking that could contribute to the rejection of the ring. Like, oh gosh, I wasn't even thinking about that I don't really want to wear a piece of jewelry that was Lilith's. Yeah, yeah, you know, like it's, it's. It's not just mazes baggage, like Eve brought her own baggage into that conversation.
Speaker 3:I think that's interesting. She wasn't even able to just say to maze like I want to be with you, can we be together, she? She had to come up with this scheme, right.
Speaker 3:The other, like I do want to like spend a little more time with the, adriana and Linda that lovely moment, when Adriana comes to Linda's house and you know she had figured it out and like I believe that, that that that must it out, and like I believe that that that that must be the case, that like that, that that's correct.
Speaker 3:Like when you're adopted, you look at anyone who looks a little bit like you, who's about the right age, like could it be you, could it be you? And that gave me a little bit of goosebumps, just because knowing that Linda has been thinking of this child every day since she left her and knowing that this child has been thinking of her too, and I also really appreciate, I'm very glad and I don't know how they could have written it any other way I'm very glad that Adriana ended up with the adoptive parents she did. They seem like they've done a wonderful job. They're very lovely, wonderful people. And she says the first time we see her, which is several episodes ago, she's like, oh, it's the best thing that happened to me. My mom and dad are great that. You know. Every parent who has given up a child for adoption wants to believe that they made the right choice and I like, and I, I like having reassurance, at least in fictional form, and in this case I mean, like linda was what 17 like there's she could not have given adriana the life that adriana's parents gave her right and the life that she's giving Charlie now Right, so like she's in a position where she can make a generous donation to the clinic
Speaker 3:where Adriana's mom is getting treated to make sure that her mom's going to be okay, and that moment was wonderful. And then the other thing, because she put Charlie down to go answer the door and Charlie was being quiet and then he makes a noise. She's like oh, you have a baby. And I could see that being a moment of resentment. And it wasn't, it was just wonder, and like that was also, just like it was an emotional release that was so satisfying. I actually teared up when she says I'm your sister, I did too. I did too Because like how, oh, the world has opened up for Adriana in a way right now, and for Charlie and for Linda. You know, she's probably never had like the we don't know if she had any siblings in her adoptive family, but she has a sibling, a biological sibling, biological sibling that she can, whose life she can be a part of and who can be part of her life, and like what a gift, what a lovely, lovely gift.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. I want to talk about two more things in this episode and then we should move on. So one you wanted to talk about that lovely moment between Amenadiel and Ella. Yes, when Amenadiel sort of relieves Ella from the babysitting Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because he has that wonderful moment where he meets with the rabbi, the imam and the priest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at Lux. I actually was going to bring that up as fluff. I'll just do it parenthetically. Now he says drinks are on me and the rabbi and the priest are both like all right. And the imam is just like he gives us this sort of indignant look, which I thought was well played.
Speaker 3:Yes, anyway. So but because he's trying to think of, like his future job as God and like asking Ella, like what would you say to God if he, if God, were in front of you right now? And like, is there anything you would change? And you know her response is so lovely, like you know God's amazing Cause God's always there for me.
Speaker 3:God loves that and you know I love Amenadiel's response, which is like can you take a little bit of that faith that you have in God and put it in yourself? And like it's like the perfect thing to say, because it's not like of course you're worthy or any of the things that would like a person would could immediately shut down. It was like can you try to do something that I think would be good? Because it is like you are good? And yeah, I mean I really really appreciated that moment and it made me realize, like how good a father, a menodeal, is and will be, as as charlie grows up and then knowing how the the show ends, it gives you a kind of glimpse into the type of deity amenadiel will be and the compassion and the knowing how to meet people where they are yeah, yeah, you know, speaking of knowing how the show ends, there's a.
Speaker 2:there's a moment when lucifer's talking to Linda and says you know, he's describing himself, but he's also sort of projecting onto Linda, but accurately, and she says maybe you should be a therapist. I noticed that too. I was like oh hey, foreshadowing, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think they do.
Speaker 2:That was, that was kind of cool, that was kind of cool. Yeah, that was kind of cool, that was kind of cool. Yeah, I will say that scene between amenadiel and ella, when she's like I wouldn't change anything, I was like really you won't change anything, yeah, yeah, I mean like in the next episode when lucifer is like war will be no more, you know, like all the things he's gonna change like even like a hangover, like I mean they're, I can think of some pretty good things. You know, I like and like I. I wish they had written it so that he had asked the question more directly about her relationship with God. So when he asked it, like would you change anything? Like I just don't believe.
Speaker 3:There's nothing yeah, I mean I the way that I imagine it is that in her estimation like the things that are imperfect about our world are because humans are imperfect agreed yes, um, but then you've got like things like hurricanes and tsunamis and like, okay, okay, those are, those are climate change, but the the, the things that are like acts of God, that are just completely unfair, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, anyway, the last thing I actually want to talk about is Adriana's boyfriend, owen. So it's another one of those cases, like I'm thinking about race, right, so Owen's a black guy, adriana's white and he turns out to be the bad guy. Right, he turns out to be a murderer and he like betrayed Adriana, like he's a bad guy on many levels and I feel like this is not the first time where somebody was like we need more diversity in this cast and I'm like, oh, not the first time where somebody was like we need more diversity in this cast and I'm like, oh, let's cast a black guy and then let's make him the villain, and then he turns out to be the villain. Like I feel like we've seen this again and again, like there was the guy in the scene with the actor boxer guy, the scene with the, the actor boxer guy, the uh and and the, the agent who had, like a jewish name but was a black guy who was like a total nebbishy.
Speaker 3:What was the bad guy? Even like the I? I for one. Some reason I went back and re-watched the first and second episode the um photographer, the paparazzo in like the second episode. Who was the young black guy?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it feels like it's a pattern at this point and I find it a little disturbing and I don't know what to do with it. But, like I just think our casting crew like I'm not saying don't cast black actors, but I'm just saying like not always for the bad guys.
Speaker 3:I don't know. It's a, an episode about how the, the black character, is like struggling or, or, or you know, up against like terrible racial politics, something of like caleb, or it's a.
Speaker 2:It's a character who's a bad guy and the the bad guy ones are like ones that actually the race is immaterial, it's not a part of the storyline. Like their race, their race does not affect the storyline could just as easily have been, in fact, like the one that I'm thinking about from previous seasons, where he had a Jewish name you know I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't even know what I want like what I want different about it, cause it's not. I'm not saying that I don't. I don't even know what I want like what I want different about it, cause it's not. I'm not saying that I don't want more black actors in the show. I definitely do. I just wish there were some awareness as to like the the stereotypes and the patterns that are being reified by the casting.
Speaker 2:You know so, I don't know. Anyway, that was just something that I noticed that you know is interesting in this episode in particular, where Adriana has a black boyfriend and then has a black brother, right, because Charlie's black, and you know so. We see this sort of. You know, linda and Amanda deal pairing, and, and Adriana and owen, but amanda was an angel and owen is gross, a bad person, yeah. So anyway, I I don't. That's all I have to say about that. I don't actually have like a deep analysis, I'm just noting it. Yeah, wish it were different, wish it were different, yeah, so, okay, well, that was a lot of overthinking on one episode. Let's move on to. Nothing lasts forever. So I have some overthoughts on nothing lasts forever. I know this is an episode that comes up on the regular between you and me about where they have, um, where our our writers like missed an so lay it on us.
Speaker 3:So when Ella is in Linda's office and she's telling the story of seeing a man almost step into the street and that is her reason for believing there is darkness in her and that there's something wrong with her it is very clear that Ella has intrusive thoughts and, like her, her um interaction between her and Dennis Haysbert is just gorgeous. Like I wrote it down, I was getting teary eyed and for the most part, linda seems pretty good. The problem is she didn't name them as intrusive thoughts and, like you know, for Ella, the character whatever for people watching, I wish they knew what that was, because I have had intrusive thoughts my entire life. I had one when I was about 25 that terrified me and I felt terrible about it for years, like I thought it meant something about me. I did not know what they were until I gave birth to my second child and I still feel very lucky that nothing bad happened because of this.
Speaker 3:So after the baby was born, he came at 1147. So 13 minutes to midnight on Friday the 13th, and then then they moved us into a room and had me do paperwork because I'm like hooray American healthcare system. So I was a lot more honest on the paperwork than I probably should have been. And one of the questions was like do you ever think about harming your child? And I answered honestly because I do have intrusive thoughts and hormones made them worse. I had some terrible intrusive thoughts when I was pregnant with my son or both of them actually and so my midwife came in and talked to me about it and actually I think a service worker came in and talked to me about it as well, and I feel very lucky because if I were from a more marginalized group, they might've taken my baby away from me. But my midwife told me like, oh, that sounds like an intrusive thought and I was like I finally had a name for it and I was able to do some research and find out like how common it is and what, how it doesn't mean anything and how it's. That is not who I am, like the the way that the things that my research showed me was like to think of it as like clouds in the sky. It just just let that drift past. The sky is who you are, the clouds are not, and so for a show that I feel like has done such a good job of giving a metaphor and meaning and voice to various mental health concerns.
Speaker 3:It really missed the mark. All they had to do was have a two-second thing where Linda says, well, that sounds like intrusive thoughts, those are very common. And for Ella to say no, no, no. I'm worse For her to just reject it and still have that lovely moment with Dennis Haysbert, just so that the audience could know that's what it is. Because I know there are many, many people who are struggling with the same thing, because I did until I was 34 years old, without knowing what it was and being too ashamed to ever tell anyone about it because they think it means they're a bad person, as Ella does.
Speaker 3:So, as Ella does, whereas she, like we have in that episode, at the very beginning, she's like can you imagine being eaten by a shark and what would that mean? And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And Dan's like it's amazing to me how excited you get, even about gruesome stuff, but I know you're doing it to help people. And she like immediately shuts down.
Speaker 3:And like the thing is, her intrusive thoughts are so much more gruesome than the average person's because of the work she does. She has it available in her mind for it to show up, for it to show up, and so that's something I I really wish they had done differently, even though I have really appreciated this storyline and the showing. That, like the line that Dennis Haysbert said, is something along the lines of don't you understand the darker the darkness, the brighter the light, and you shine so bright it can be seen all the way from heaven, and I, like I really appreciate that. That's another way of like part of the reason, like with the clouds on the sky metaphor, you can see the clouds because the sky is bright, you know, like if it were a dark sky, you couldn't see them and there are other ways to.
Speaker 2:There are other other metaphors, and that metaphor of sort of the, the balancing, I think, comes up on the regular and all different kinds of all different kinds of people who have or who are interpreting reality and are interpreting human existence. But that idea, that like of the balance, that like we need the darkness in order to appreciate the light, or whatever you know, or even you know, the, the light always wins. Right, if you're in a dark room and you light one little candle, the light wins, but you, but you need the darkness in order to appreciate the light. Like that there's. That's why we have the shadow, like if life were only joy, we wouldn't appreciate it yeah, well, that's like the uh original heaven in the good place, right right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I I don't think that our writers invented that sort of idea. No, I think they delivered it beautifully from dennis hazebert's god to, especially to ella, who, as an audience, we have come to love. So I think that's definitely worth noting. Yeah, and then, sorry, are you ready to move on, or do you do you have?
Speaker 3:oh sure, sure I just like that's. That's something like if our audience ever rivals anything like close to a 16th of the uh of the original. I hope that it it gets the idea out that these are intrusive thoughts. It's a thing. People have them.
Speaker 2:They are not who you are and I I just wish the show had done that because it it was a missed opportunity when it has done so well in previously with uh with mental health issues I mean, they did provide that beautiful metaphor, yes, from the darkest darkness and the brightest, the brightest light, like they did give that beautiful metaphor, but acknowledging that it's a thing, that it's normal that there's a name for it. Yeah, yeah, there's another exchange with denn Haysbert's God that I thought we could talk about, which is at the end with God and Lucifer when God says you're right.
Speaker 2:I was not a great father and or I could have been a better father, and I love you and I'm proud of the man that you've become, which is just so beautiful.
Speaker 2:And, like Ellis, delivered so beautifully and ellis has such a great job receiving it like you know, and and then the the really touching thing that lucifer's immediate like after the hug, his immediate thought is amenity I would like to hear this too, which is also just really sweet. And it continues a pattern of showing us a minute, excuse me, showing us lucifer's emotional growth and genuine care for his brother amenadiel and I. I loved it and it feels like a fantasy. I mean, the whole show is a fantasy, but in particular this reconciliation between parent and adult child. It feels like a fantasy that a lot of us are seeking right now, like not right this second, but like in this moment. You know, we saw it, um, before we started recording, you and I were listing a bunch of places where it shows up. We see it in in Kanto with abuela. We saw it in Ted Lasso with his mom.
Speaker 2:We saw it in uh everything, everywhere, all at once yeah, yep, and in seeing red and it's like it's that reconciliation where the parent of the adult child says I did the best I can't, I could, and it wasn't good enough or it still hurt you, or whatever version of that uh needs to be in that story and they reconcile and and hug and everything. You know everyone lives happily ever after. I also want that desperately. Um, you know, our dad has been gone for 10 years now and I didn't get it. I didn't get it and he didn't. He I mean he didn't emotionally abuse me. That I feel like the God of this show did to Lucifer. And also there was some stuff he could have done better and he didn't. We didn't have that moment. We had the setup for it, but dad didn't take it. He didn't. We didn't have that moment. We had the setup for it, but dad didn't take it. He didn't take the opportunity.
Speaker 2:And I think that's true of a lot of us. Our age, like we gen xers, are wishing for that reconciliation and so we're getting it in our pop culture and I think that's. There's a part of me that says I'm really cynical, that I don't believe that that's, that it's happening, but I don't believe that that would have happened if this were real. I'm putting quotes around that because obviously it's not real, but there's also a sense that, like that's kind of what pop culture does. Yeah, that's kind of why we love it.
Speaker 3:You know, can I give you cause? I am a Pollyanna. Can I give you a a positive spin on this? Sure, the Gen Xers who are making this content are not going to get it from their boomer parents, but they're writing scripts for their fellow parents. Yeah, for when their millennial and gen z and gen a kids grow up and say like this this hurt me, the gen x parents who wrote this or who consumed this, this pop culture will be able to say you're right, I did the best that I could and it still wasn't good enough for you in some ways, but I love you and I'm proud of the grownup you have become and the the millennials and Gen Z and below will have grown up with this as a part of pop culture and expect it and expect it from themselves for their own kids I hope you're right I hope you're right, yeah and I like that makes me.
Speaker 3:That's part of the reason why I love pop culture, is it? It puts ideas into the zeitgeist that, whether or not they're possible now, they can become possible in part because we're all taking it in.
Speaker 2:Right right, it's science fiction, it's psychology fiction, family dynamic fiction.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh, I love that we should create a genre psychology fiction.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And you know even some of that. Like we, we I feel like we've seen that in our lifetime. Like pop culture led the way in in acceptance for, for lgbtq. In a lot of ways now, pop culture also led the way in in being just hurtful and awful and and terrible, but the transformative and and like progressive idea helped to, uh, give people something to anchor themselves to when their child came out, when when they realized that they weren't what they thought they were. You know all of those things, so call me an optimist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're an optimist, but I like it, I like it, yeah, yeah, all right. Well, so before we get to fluff, I just this is kind of fluff but I actually like I have a little bit of a bone to pick, cause, you know, I like the names. I like, looking into the names and sad KL, like it has the word sadadek in it, which is like saints or like righteous, so like Sadekiel, like righteous of God, like yep. There it is, it's right there in the Hebrew. Remiel I briefly looked up is like there is a source text from an apocryphal book of Enoch where Remiel shows up and like some of the names, like I, I really I deeply appreciate that. Like if we're gonna pretend the celestials are real, like let's use their, let's use their names right. And then they threw in that joke about the handsomest angel, hand jobiel, like hand job and.
Speaker 2:And I, I don't like it. Y'all, I don't like it. I this is a moment of me overthinking it, but I don't mind irreverence. This whole show is irreverent. That feels like making fun and that I mind that. I mind it. It just feels I don't know it, it rubs me the wrong way and, like in the next episode that I accidentally watched. Like we'll meet someone who's like just another um sibling, who's just a jerk and whatever, and like a total bro, whatever. Like, I don't even mind if the, the character, if the personhood is reprehensible, because that's sort of what's interesting, like is to question whether or not angelic equals good, but hand jovial, yeah, it just feels like a low blow. It feels like you know what it is. It's one of those moments where, like in the show, where, like lucifer was taking dick pics and I was like it just doesn't fit. It just doesn't fit. Yeah, like, yeah, you've built this character, you've built this world and you threw in a like 12 year old boy joke yeah, it didn't.
Speaker 3:I have a 12 year old boy and he doesn't make jokes like that.
Speaker 2:You know it just didn't and like the first time through, like I didn't really notice, but um, in re-watching and overthinking on purpose and also like some of the like fan, like, haha, that's so funny, like anyway, that's enough overthinking that for one moment. So I think that you have some fluff.
Speaker 3:I do is when Mazikeen and Eve meet at the guy's house and he's got a Hollingshead piece of art and she says what is that really expensive piece of art doing in this crappy house in Van Nuys? And I was like I don't know Los Angeles, I don't know anything about Van Nuys, I don't know if that's a neighborhood, but that house was not crappy. I would like to live in that house. It was a very lovely house. So that was the first one and it was just a little one where it's just like you need to do better with your set design.
Speaker 2:That's supposed to be crappy I mean the coffee table that eve broke when maze threw her on. It was like a cheap particle board coffee table.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I mean like living in Los Angeles you're going to still have some of your college furniture because it's an expensive place to live.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, what else?
Speaker 3:That was the first one. The second one, we talked a little bit about it, but when he gets he fights the guy in that Japanese tea house. Oh my God, I don't know what it is, but like full suit, barefoot, fighting. I was like can I just just Tom Ellis? I don't know why and I'm not a foot person. I'm a Tom Ellis foot person, apparently. Yeah, oh, my goodness, it was just so gorgeous. The only thing that would have been better is if he were wearing his black and white, because that's my favorite of his suits.
Speaker 2:Yeah, instead of the brown.
Speaker 3:Yeah, instead of the brown. Yeah, but I was willing to, I'll compromise. So those are, those are my, uh, my fluffs. Oh, and did you notice the number for the valet that he got? No uh, beginning of nothing lasts forever. He, he gives the valet his car keys and he gets number 666, of course, he does.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so my fluff. I have some continuity stuff right, like the big family reunion for the retirement party, and like they just sort of wave it away. Lucifer says it's LA, nobody will even notice. But way back in season one we saw that like just a glimpse of divinity, like drove people insane even in LA. So that felt like a little bit like of a way like which I think God was there. They could have waved it away a different way. Yeah, yeah, so that like that. Yeah, that bothered me a little bit. That's frustrating. Yeah, they could have just said like God could have said like oh, I put a glimmer on us, no one can see us, I don't know. Yeah, you know. Like that just felt like straightforward enough for them to do the other thing that's.
Speaker 2:I don't even know if this is fluff, but like we don't have time to get into it. But the there's sort of this recurring joke. I mean it's not, it's a storyline where, like Chloe's having a hard time wrapping her mind around what it would mean for Lucifer to become God and be her boyfriend, right, I mean like it comes, it's a, it's a lot. It's like actually quite a bit of real estate airtime, quite a bit of airtime in these two episodes and like, at one point he says you'll be the future, the future Mrs G, which I I thought was like, like an interesting. It stood out to me as the way he referred, referring to her that way, the future mrs g, that like marriage doesn't feel, like I don't know it, I it just.
Speaker 3:It was a little speed bump for me that I the the entire him becoming God and then even, like God, retiring to the goddess's universe. I struggle with if you're thinking of God as one understands God outside of this show, because God is all knowing, god is all seeing, god is everywhere, and so, like how how can God go to another universe and never be seen again? Like that doesn't, because God is God of all universes. And so, like the idea that someone could quit the LAPD to help her boyfriend be God, it just doesn't compute, and so that's one of the.
Speaker 3:I rewatched the first four seasons over and over again. There's a bunch that I skip in season three, but I am happy to rewatch the entire first four seasons, the fifth and sixth season, season. I rewatched the fifth when the sixth came out and then I'm rewatching it for this, and I'm always I'm surprised at how much I enjoy it because, like I remember, it is not enjoying it, and part of it is because of these like storylines that just don't work logistically, and they do, if you think of God as being like a king of a small place yeah, rather than as God, and they did a great job with what they had.
Speaker 2:I mean they made Dennis Haysbert is God, like there is a figure and a you know a body and stuff, so yeah, but yeah, yeah, I mean and part of the appeal, part of the charm, is the ridiculousness of it Like, do I need to pull Trixie out of school? Yeah, but it also just like, even within that, even within that conceit, I found it Like he can't say I love you yet, yeah, but he's calling her the future Mrs J. I don't know, I just found. Yet, yeah, but he's calling her the future Mrs J. I don't know, I just found that.
Speaker 3:It's a little bit too far, because, even like when I try to wrap my head around the idea of Charlie being God's grandson, what yeah?
Speaker 3:It just doesn't fit. So I mean, and that's one of those like, if you I mean crime solving devil, it makes sense, don't overthink it. But also there, there, there comes to a level of absurdity that you just have to like, okay, I'm just gonna go with it and just imagine that god in this universe is like not what even they in the show are describing as god. Yeah, you know, because I, because otherwise it's just, it just breaks down in a way that you can't rebuild it. Yeah, and if it were any like, if it were any actor other than Tom Ellis who can, I think, could carry any level of ridiculousness and sell it, and if it were any cast that weren't as cohesive as this cast, I think this would have been like, wait, what? Yeah, really yeah.
Speaker 2:So, and my last thing, my last piece of fluff, and then I really need to go, cause I have to go pick up my youngin. Is the goddess comes back, but she looks like Charlotte Richards and you actually solved that for me. This is my mental, this is my mental canon now, cause when I said that, when we watched it the first time, you were like, well, it's her last physical iteration, so that's she just like recreated it when she came back. So that's what my headcanon is. But I still had a moment like that wasn't her form, that wasn't her physical form until whatever, two years ago.
Speaker 3:I actually I've seen people on on Reddit say like why is Charlotte Richards with God?
Speaker 2:Yeah, cause they don't even bother like explaining it, they just and like nor do I think they should have, no, and I think you're like they don't want you to think too hard about it, but I I appreciate your, your head, ken, I'm like that was her last physical manifestation in this world. And so she like, reconstituted or whatever, especially since Charlotte isn't using that body right now. Yeah, but yeah, that's my last piece of fluff for this one, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Anyway, I have to. It's a good one.
Speaker 2:There's a. There's a lot to overthink in these two episodes, oh my goodness. So there's. There's more rich tech. Like we, we could have kept going. We absolutely could have kept going. Oh my goodness, there was a bunch of stuff we didn't even cover. Yeah, so, but I got to go get the young in, or she will. Yeah, it'll be bad. You will hear about it. I will need to be one of those.
Speaker 3:Well, and in 30 years? In 30 years you'll be like I did the best that I could, but it wasn't good enough. But I love you and I'm proud of you.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, okay. See you next time, ma'am, see you next time.
Speaker 1:Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom, licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 4.0 License. Visit the show notes for the URL. I am an artificially generated voice powered by Narrakeepcom. Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix. Tracy and Emily are not affiliated with Fox, netflix nor WB. If you liked this episode, subscribe to keep overthinking with them and visit the show notes for other ways to connect.