As season 6 progresses, the Guy sisters have some moments of joy and appreciation and quite a few quibbles for the writers. Though the cartoonified episode is in some ways delightful (Tracie wanted to be an animator when she was a kid), there are moments in the writing that feel either ableist or rushed (or both). The sisters note that it feels particularly hypocritical that the episode seems to judge Jimmy Barnes for being less-than rational/typical when the whole show is a daydream from a comic book.
In the second of the two episodes, Lucifer’s one-time lover, Esther, who is now a rabbi provides fodder for musings on the kinds of theological and cosmological God-wrestling the character of Lucifer Morningstar engenders. We also spend more than a little time (and intentional and unintentional double entendres) wondering about the seemingly misplaced erection jokes that pop up in the episode (see what we did there?).
In the end, though there remains some good things to recommend even these season 6 episodes, the sisters are left with the sense that the whole enterprise would have benefited from a bit more time for reflection, review, and revision.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 Licensehttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon
As season 6 progresses, the Guy sisters have some moments of joy and appreciation and quite a few quibbles for the writers. Though the cartoonified episode is in some ways delightful (Tracie wanted to be an animator when she was a kid), there are moments in the writing that feel either ableist or rushed (or both). The sisters note that it feels particularly hypocritical that the episode seems to judge Jimmy Barnes for being less-than rational/typical when the whole show is a daydream from a comic book.
In the second of the two episodes, Lucifer’s one-time lover, Esther, who is now a rabbi provides fodder for musings on the kinds of theological and cosmological God-wrestling the character of Lucifer Morningstar engenders. We also spend more than a little time (and intentional and unintentional double entendres) wondering about the seemingly misplaced erection jokes that pop up in the episode (see what we did there?).
In the end, though there remains some good things to recommend even these season 6 episodes, the sisters are left with the sense that the whole enterprise would have benefited from a bit more time for reflection, review, and revision.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 Licensehttp://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah, the plot which they overthink.
Speaker 2:I'm here with my sister, Emily Guy-Burken. She does not use a hyphen.
Speaker 3:And I am here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and she does use a hyphen.
Speaker 2:And together this is Lightbringers, where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show. And yes, we are overthinking it, so much overthinking. We are chugging along in season six, our listeners. It's only been a week, but for us it's actually been a while since we spoke time. So today we're going to talk about episodes 603 and 604.
Speaker 2:So Yabba Dabba Do Me and Pin the Tail on the Daddy. So these are an interesting like think the the writers knew with the whole production crew. They knew this was it, this was the last season and they decided to have some fun, uh, with this season. And um, yeah, we get quite a bit of fun in in yabba dabba do me. This is the one one where Chloe and Lucifer go into Jimmy Barnes' Hellloop Jimmy Barnes from way back in season one and end up in a cartoon. So it reminded me, I told you, it reminded me of the episode of Angel where some sort of spell turns Angel and I think maybe one other character, I don't remember it's been a long time, but anyway he gets turned into a Muppet and it's just like one of those things where I just again like see the writer's room, like what if we made them cartoons Like how do we solve this?
Speaker 3:problem Either like a 3 am session or they're enjoying some other refreshments in addition to the commissary Maybe so?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know, as, as someone who my childhood aspiration was to be an animator, so I, I dug it, I did I, although I have to say, like the likeness of the cartoon Lucifer, I it wasn't really, I wasn't impressed for me. Yeah, they. I mean they make a big deal about the chin butt um for the cleft in his chin, which I don't know. I just didn't buy it anyway. I I would have rendered cartoon lucifer considerably differently than that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because you know I am the arbiter of cartoons, apparently anyway, the two of us yes so all right, well, I let's start.
Speaker 2:Let's start with yabba dabba do me. We have talked about mental health in this show repeatedly, and so this is a really interesting test case for us, where jimmy was in a psychiatric hospital for the criminally insane or whatever they whatever, however, they say that now that sounds gross when I say it out loud, very Arkham Asylum sounding, totally, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like Batman, but he, he was in some sort of, uh, mental health facility within the criminal justice system when he died. And so when they go to the hell loop, like they give us some clues, and even before they go to the hell loop, like they give us some clues, and even before they get in there, that something's going to be off, cause, like Lucifer can't find the door, and it just looks weird, and and then they enter and they are in, they are cartoonified and they are in a cartoon. And before we hit record, you and I were kind of remarking on the fact that, despite the fact that this show does a lot of things really well with mental health, something about the way chloe and lucifer talked about this was just off. Yeah, yeah, they kept talking about how lucifer broke jimmy's brain and now they needed to fix it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which feels ableist, yeah, that is the word, that is absolutely the word. Um, ableist, and it completely devalues what they do find when they're there, right, I mean. So the hell loop first. First we're in the cartoon version of the wedding that lucifer interrupted. Then we go back to the 1980s, which chloe notes is like more 80s than the 80s, and there's something really actually playful and fun about that as well, and the cartoon is delightful like that we're by. Just by just labeling it as broken and in need of fixing, we completely devalue and undervalue what is creative and fun and playful and beautiful, even about Jimmy's psyche.
Speaker 3:Well, and so we're seeing some aspect of the little boy that we end up finding at the end that this is someone who took refuge in cartoons but who also kind of saw the opportunities and the things that are enjoyable about different parts of life. So, as we talked about before we hit record Wednesday's Child, they decided to drop him as a music producer because he was too mainstream and the thing is like, based on what we're seeing with this cartoon with the 80s Hellloop, there's something very creative about Jimmy's mind and his process, but also something that is popular, yeah, and so like they're dropping him for like a sound that is going to have mainstream success.
Speaker 3:And already has, because he comes in to say it just went platinum. Yeah, and like that's. I have no doubt that happens in music, where it's just like we don't want to sell out man.
Speaker 2:Sure, there's some of those sort of almost limiting beliefs about what real artists like that real artists have to suffer or something, and that if it's popular, then that means like it's not good because people are stupid, right?
Speaker 1:So you need.
Speaker 2:You need to only appeal to an elite group, a sophisticated yeah, exactly, if, if the lemmings like it, then it's not actually good, it's drivel. Yes, yep, yes.
Speaker 3:But that, like seeing this worldview, it convinced me in a way that you know, the first couple times. So we met Jimmy Barnes in the pilot and then we see him, maybe once more, maybe twice more, I don't remember.
Speaker 2:We see him like Chloe goes to visit him in the facility and he's like it like bangs ends up banging his head against the like until he bleeds.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:To show us just how unhinged he is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but this is what convinced me like he was probably quite talented as a music producer.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, he was Delilah's music producer and she was a superstar, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like Beyonce level I don't know I'm quite that big but kind of like making us think that looking at things from a reality-based perspective and, like you know, to-do lists and productivity and like everything exactly as it looked in the real world, is like the right way to be, yeah, is like the right way to be yeah, whereas, like you know, having flights of fancy and like emphasizing like the fun of, like people in spandex and and you know, is is uh, not like that, that's, that's not okay. We're we. We can't have that. It needs to be fixed it's broken, it's wrong.
Speaker 3:Yeah and that's really upsetting.
Speaker 2:it's yeah, it's unfortunate, especially for this show which, you know, is based on a comic book about the literal devil taking a vacation in la, I mean, and opening a piano bar. This is not a, this is not a to-do list kind of a guy you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, and it's interesting at like the lesson of that episode because he comes into it with like you know, I tried to help Carol because I don't care about him, but I came to care about him, so let me help someone I hate, and Jimmy Barnes is worthy of hatred. He killed Delilah simply for financial reasons, with someone he had loved as much as he was capable of loving, and he did this and had no remorse as far as one could tell, seemed to have
Speaker 2:no remorse, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And, you know, did some truly awful things, and so it's interesting that we then get this like glimpse into like his creativity and his playfulness, part of, I guess, what made him a good music producer, and then you get all the way back to where Lucifer is actually able to see the pain at the heart of why he became the monster that he was, and that's I very much appreciated that. It's like both the first time I watched it and this time around, that you know, when you get down to it, hurt people people. Often you know there are like I think it's there's a very good reason why they helped Jimmy Barnes and not Malcolm, because I don't think Malcolm was a hurt person who hurt people. I think he was just a sociopath. I think he might've also been hurt at some point, but there there was a kind of empathy missing from him that I think wasn't missing from Jimmy. I think it was he pushed it away from himself because it hurt.
Speaker 3:So in any case. But I also I wish there had been more to the like wow, this guy's pretty creative, rather than like. Chloe realizes oh, the cartoons are his solace, yeah, but she doesn't realize like, and boy does he have a great imagination. Yeah, like it's amazing how he is able to like you know this is his hell loop, but he's recreating it in a way that he can handle. That is also fun, even if it doesn't feel fun to him at the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you know, there's also something like the scene where, in the hotel room, where Lucifer realizes what's happening and addresses young Jimmy directly. What's happening and addresses young Jimmy directly. Thinking about the writing, it was very expository. You know, jimmy, I can't get you out of here and I don't even know if you deserve to get out of here and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, like it was very, I don't know, unsubtle, which I guess isn't the end of the world. But I feel like our writers have given us more subtle and more polished before. Well, it's actually felt like here's our moral. Yeah, yeah, kind of a way that I feel like our writers have been I don't know just less hit you over the head in the past. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would agree with that, but the other thing we were talking about before recording began was how it feels. A little like this season was rushed, yeah, and they would have been more subtle. There were some story beats that would have been more polished and, I think, even some acting choices that might've been different, but I remember when it came out because it came out in September 2021, we had just gotten the second half of season five, like only a few months before.
Speaker 3:And I was just like oh wow, I wasn't expecting this until 2022 at the earliest, so it feels rushed for a number of reasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, okay, let's move on to the second episode. I think and we can circle back if we need to One of the things that really ties these two together and actually really this whole season is a focus on an absent parent and the consequences thereof, and also, interestingly, in the second one, the consequences for the absent parent potentially so in in Yabba Dabba Doomy. In Yabba Dabba Doomy, we see Jimmy Barnes's mom abandon him and at the end of that episode we meet, who we will learn is Rory we don't have her name yet A young female angel with knives for feathers in her wings who tells Lucifer that he is her daughter, that that she is his daughter. I screwed up the pronouns on that one. She is his daughter and I remember.
Speaker 2:It's funny because when I watched this the first time, I had seen like a rumor online that she was his and Chloe's daughter from the future, and I really did not like that. I was like, please don't let it be that, please don't let it be that, please don't let it be that. And so when she says I'm your daughter, the first time I watched it I was like, oh man, I really didn't want it to be that, and so I like that disappointment colored everything for me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I felt the same way, and in part because Lucifer has made it clear through the first five seasons that he has no interest in having children. And and Now I do appreciate that this is one of those things that you can very easily change your mind about when you find out the choice has not been taken away from you, but something unintentional happened. Or even you end up taking care of a kid who becomes yours, even if they're not biologically yours, even if they're not biologically yours. However, I know a number of people who are child-free by choice who are constantly told oh, you'd change your mind. As soon as you hold that baby, as soon as you see that line on the pee stick, you would change your mind.
Speaker 3:And I'm like, can we please stop with that narrative? Yeah, and because it is the opposite of selfish when someone who is child free by choice says I don't want children. Yeah, you know, because bringing another human being into the world who is not entirely 100% wanted? Because, let me tell you, I have known since I was a tiny child I wanted to be a mom always. I have never questioned it.
Speaker 3:It has always been a core part of who I am and I adore my kids. But let me tell you, there have been times when I was pregnant, when there were babies, when they're having raging hormones, where I am like my God, this is the hardest thing ever. Oh my God, my life would be easier if I were not a parent. And if I feel that way when I am 100% all in and have been always, we have no right. We have no right to push this narrative that you need to just try it. It's really interesting that that will come up in this show too, especially in this narrative that, like, well, you need to it's just try it.
Speaker 2:It's really interesting that it would that that will come up in this show too, especially in the in this pairing that is our pairing. It's not the shows, but they. They are right next to each other. Where we just saw jimmy's mom, who were not left with the impression that she was a horrible, malicious person yeah she maybe should have been childless, right? If she could be convinced so easily to abandon him in a hotel room. What was he like? 11? Maybe yeah. So that's a great point.
Speaker 3:A great point, I think that like I have a kind of an outsized reaction to this, because it's not just about Luc lucifer, like this is my, this is my reaction and it's partially because it's five seasons of like. In the like very first episode he's, he's saying to chloe like yeah, children are awful. And like was there a mistake or with it was she planned?
Speaker 2:and like yeah, nothing to write home about, but the I. I think that it's. You're right, it's not just Lucifer. We see it in TV shows all the time. You know, like Big Bang Theory, penny spends the entire series saying that she doesn't want to be a kid, and then they close with her being pregnant because they wanted to. They wanted to close the they like the symmetry of. In the very beginning, leonard says our children will be smart and beautiful, and so closing his loop is more important than the fact that Penny didn't want to be a mother.
Speaker 3:And that I I didn't even know that's how it ended, Cause I stopped watching several seasons ago when it became clear that Penny was not a character in her own right, she was a prize. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, all the more so with the way they closed it with that yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's not, you're right, it's not just Lucifer.
Speaker 3:So, and that really irritated me a lot.
Speaker 2:There was also something really like in the same constellation the fact that, like I just knew when I looked into her eyes what that feels like wishful thinking, yes, and also like Oedipus.
Speaker 3:Thank you very much. I'm not saying like that happens often, but you know, the story of Oedipus makes enough sense that everyone is just like yeah, I mean, jocasta was pretty young when she had them. She was still pretty hot.
Speaker 2:Yuck Um well to me. Okay, yes, yes, and the the narrative of of that. I just looked into her eyes and I knew there was a recognition there. It does the same thing where it sort of devalues and makes wrong someone who might not.
Speaker 3:Well it also it devalues, like any other type of.
Speaker 2:I mean I guess they would say like you'd feel that way with your child, who you adopt you know, like, yeah, the impression, I don't know, I don't know how that, I don't know how this magic spell would, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Because you know, I don't know if Mira and Robert Daniel, or whatever his name was, her father like did a paternity test, but like and would that negate this lovely father-daughter relationship they have forged?
Speaker 2:if it turns out he's not the biological father, not the biological father.
Speaker 3:I mean like there's just so much in there that just doesn't fit. Yeah, with how careful this show usually is. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And like, can I just say, Brianna Hildebrand, who plays Rory, is way too short to be the child of Lucifer and Chloe she is, so she's teeny.
Speaker 2:She's so pretty, though her facial features I think fit.
Speaker 3:Facially. Yes, she does look like she could be their child. Yeah, and like that. That's not really a thing, it's just I. I thought of that when he had to like lean down so much to look at her, to look her in the eye when she was wearing this huge those huge, um yeah, five, three or something. She something. She's not a very tall woman.
Speaker 2:Well, since you brought up Mira, let's talk about Mira's mom.
Speaker 3:Yes, the rabbi, who is the potential mother that we spend the most time with?
Speaker 2:Yes, Right, yeah, so let's talk about Esther the rabbi. So you pointed out the fact that it's curious that, according to lucifer, they spent 15 minutes together having sex in an orgy, and that's it, though. She knew his full name and he knew hers, so I you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah maybe he was an unreliable narrator on that, although the full name could have just been like he could have just known esther, and like maize did that research for him because she's so good at uh, at um, tracking humans, tracking humans.
Speaker 2:So possibly, you know possibly. You know, possibly so, but she says that he's the reason that she decided to become a rabbi, which is very theologically interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and I'm going to let you take the lead on this because you're the Torah scholar of the two of us.
Speaker 2:Well. So it's a I'm not even sure it's sort of it's Torah. Like the name Lucifer Morningstar is not Jewish in the least right. It's a mistranslation of we've talked about this before like of a line from Isaiah. Kind of gets mistranslated and maybe maybe it was about the rebellious angel, maybe not, it's unclear. Anyway, there is, however, you know, jewish commentary it's not torah about or not torah, with the capital t in the five books, but there is commentary and stories about the angel who you know ends up Lilith's consort and his name is taboo to be said. His Hebrew name is taboo to be said among some Jewish groups. So that guy does exist in the Jewish tradition.
Speaker 2:It's an interesting question, like how interacting with that person, that creature being, might put someone on a spiritual path. Because one of the things that's really interesting about Lucifer whether with Esther the rabbi or anybody you know Ella it's not that he's an atheist, he doesn't. He doesn't disbelieve, quite the opposite. He knows for certain that God is real. He just doesn't like them, just doesn't like them. And there's I.
Speaker 2:To me that's a really interesting question, right, because I think so much of what we think about as crises of faith are about exists or doesn't exist. That's. It's a, it's a decided point. When it comes to Lucifer, that is not the question. The question is not exists or doesn't exist, it's actually. It's not even good or bad. It's sort of I don't know healthy or not, uh, looking out for us or not, and even that then becomes a question of free will. So the theological questions that Lucifer is able to engage with are actually several levels above what we tend to think about as the traditional crises of faith. God exists or God doesn't exist. That's not it, of course.
Speaker 3:God exists. He's my dad. You know one thing that's that's this is bringing up for me. And again, you, you are a resident religious expert, um, but my assumption is that Esther is a reform rabbi. She might be reconstructionist. Maybe she could also be conservative. She could be conservative.
Speaker 2:Sure, the conservative movement ordains women, okay.
Speaker 3:So I feel like in the Judaism that we were raised with, which is reform Judaism, judaism like we're, it's open to being real mad at God. I believe that that's generally true of Judaism. I don't know that that is generally true of necessarily other religions, but I like I don't really have a basis for comparison. Just, you know the the, the stuff that I consume about like extremist religions, that would not go over well. So like that's something that I think is interesting is like that Lucifer is so angry at God and whether or not that came up in the 15 minutes but that Esther was inspired to follow this path. That is about wrangling with and wrestling with these really big questions of things like free will and like what, what does God owe humanity? What do? What does humanity owe God? You know the all of those sorts of things. So like I don't think it would have worked if she had become like I don't think that that story beat would have worked if she'd become a Christian pastor, like if she hadn't been Esther, if she'd been, you know.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting point. You might be right about that. I think there are. That's an interesting point. You might be right about that. I think there are. There's. Look, I do not want to say a statement about Christians or Christian clergy, because there are so many flavors and there are really thoughtful, beautiful, nuanced theologies coming out of Christian tradition, and so it is certainly possible that there could be a similar sort of path and there are this sort of popular understanding wouldn't jibe with it, right? So I think if we were writing a novel and we really wanted to go into the background of the theology of the particular whatever, it's not impossible and for the amount of screen time that we had, esther, I think you're right, rabbi made the most sense because, as you point out, like wrestling with God is that's what Israel means, like that is the way that we chose to name ourselves as a people is that we wrestle with God?
Speaker 3:Well and it's. I think it's also kind of a shorthand. Well, it's a visual gag also, Like you get there, she's ending a prayer and you see, like she's ending the Shekeanu for a baby naming or a bris, a bris.
Speaker 2:He says a bris. Oh, yeah, he says it's a bris. Yeah, so it's a visual pun, it's a visual gag in multiple ways. So the Shekeanu is the prayer for um, like a joyful occasion, like thank God, thanks God for allowing us to reach this moment, and it's specifically for a bris, while we're talking about babies. And then there's this woman in Tali and in the prayer shawl and the and the um yarmulke.
Speaker 2:So the, the gag is on many levels, like, if you're in the know and you know sort of what the bris is, you know the prayer she's ending because she just said the last two words of it. She's a woman in prayer shawl and and yarmulke which, as you pointed out, like that's not all strains of judaism ordained women like there. There's a lot of layers to that embedded in. We get a lot of information very quickly from the visual, even the shul. The synagogue that she's in is very traditional, looking like in Moroccan style, like what one might imagine a synagogue looks like if you haven't been in one. It does not look like the synagogues that you or I attend.
Speaker 3:Well, it's also. What's interesting is I noticed that no matter which way they had they framed the shot, there was some Judaica in the background. So, like they, just they wanted to really drive home the point.
Speaker 2:Versus. Like the synagogues that you and I attend. Look like hotels or office buildings in the lobby, you know like you also don't like walk in the door into the sanctuary. Into the sanctuary yeah, it's very sort of like what you imagine in you know Jerusalem or something.
Speaker 3:So yeah, yeah, well, and her name is Esther.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Like her name isn't like. My most recent rabbi had a very popular first name that like it's not this, but like Kendall, like it's like right, or my female rabbis, you know, like I know Alyssa and well, deborah's pretty.
Speaker 2:but, like you know, jesse is a good friend of mine who's a female rabbi.
Speaker 3:So yeah, so like it. It it was going for something. Yeah, and some of it is like you know, you and I are going to dig deep into this. I think the casual viewer is just going to be like, oh, that's kind of funny, in the same way that if one of his former conquests had become a nun kind of like titillating funny or a priest priest, yeah, or a female, yeah, so that's it's interesting to think about, if you like, actually pause. And then part of the reason why it also wouldn't make sense if she had become a pastor was, like Lucifer Morningstar does exist in the Christian tradition, and how would you make that work?
Speaker 2:It's also the case that Judaism is, by and large, sex positive. I mean, there are exceptions, obviously again, broad brush but by and large sex positive insofar as, like so she thinks this person is possibly the father of her child and she's not. She's still delighted to see him. There's, there doesn't seem to be any shame about it. Like she says, I'm a different person than I was, but not in a way that's like I was dirty. I'm better now. Yeah, and I think that would be hard to understand. Sell from a Christian pastor in the short amount of time that we have.
Speaker 2:And the cultural understanding of what of of, of Christian attitudes toward premarital sex.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So anyway so we wanted to talk a little bit about Lois responses. Yeah, first of all, how did she get to Seattle so quickly?
Speaker 2:No idea, they just don't explain it. It doesn't make sense, it's not possible.
Speaker 3:I mean like From LA, yeah, from LA to Seattle. Like LAX is one of the most I mean other than Atlanta, it's one of the biggest airports in the country.
Speaker 2:But no, it's it, we're not. We're just not supposed to think about that too much. Yeah, yeah, like they wanted, they, they. You know he bends down to pick up the piece of clothing that the the woman has just dropped, and then we see her. So that's like this sort of fun visual reveal, um, and then she's annoyed because he's, she thinks he's, soliciting sex, I don't know with a woman who's naked in her broad daylight doorway and he's down on the stairwell.
Speaker 2:He's clearly not like rushing up to ravish her. It. It is like it just doesn't quite work. You know, like, and then she says you're lying. You're still lying to me, and that actually is believable as why she's mad that there's still this like the secrets between them. But the initial like I guess that that was part of the joke they wanted her to be annoyed about the sex, but I don't. Actually that didn't work for me.
Speaker 3:Well, and she knows the like effect he has on people Like you're going to have to get used to panties being thrown at him. Yeah, I mean, beckon oppenheimer probably has to do the same thing right tom ellison's wife, I mean right but yeah, I mean that, that's yeah, it just didn't.
Speaker 2:It just doesn't fit. It was the whole confrontation scene just didn't quite work, yeah yeah. And then like so she's going to have, they're going to figure it out together, but then she's jealous of Esther because she assumes that they have some sort of special spiritual because she's a rabbi, Like for all of the kind of like shorthand things that we were just talking about, which is also an interesting development.
Speaker 3:You know, that's something I can kind of not in this case. I don't feel like, I don't feel like the story earned it. However, I can say that there are some things like I have friends who are writers who I can talk to, that I know my spouse it's not jealousy, but it's just this like feels weird because it's not something he shares with me, yeah, and so like I can get that where like, and particularly if like oh, and you share a child together, like share a child together. I'm going to need a minute.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah, I buy that.
Speaker 3:I get that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'll follow you. I'll follow you there, yeah.
Speaker 3:They're throwing so much at the wall with Chloe, this episode of what she's jealous of, what she's upset about that you lose the very real and understandable reaction of. She is not a spiritual person at all, even though she now knows it's all true, but there is no sense of wrestling with God that she has ever done in her life. So there's someone that he shares a child with supposedly that's like he had this profound effect on who has devoted her life to something that is a part of his life that she has no part of. Okay, yeah, that's reasonable, but it just they don't sell it in the story.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree with everything that you just said, yeah, yeah, everything that you just said, yeah, yeah. And then I'm really gonna overthink this next scene when they go to, like they're going to try and find mira, and so they go to wherever they are. I don't remember.
Speaker 3:They told us, but I don't remember it's somewhere in california, yeah, middle of california yeah.
Speaker 2:So they, the pi, lost her trail at this little gas station convenience store place near the avocado farm. So we see them arrive with Lucifer carrying Chloe. He puts her down, he thanks her for flying Lucifer air and then says something about make sure your tray table is in the full upright position. He says I know mine is chuckles. And then walks away and like as I'm rewatching it for for this, I'm thinking, wow, Alice's delivery is kind of wooden, no pun intended. And and then I'm like no, that's not it, it's just, it's not a good line, it's not like integrated, Like you either make an erection joke and then try to get flirty or you don't make an erection joke.
Speaker 3:Well, I mean, as I told you before we started recording, he makes an erection joke and then just lets it hang, which is the opposite of what you want.
Speaker 2:Exactly Like you don't like make an erection joke to the woman you're in love with and then start walking away. It just, and she doesn't even. She doesn't touch it at all, she gives it zero, which is what you don't want.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she, she gives it zero what you don't want. Yeah, okay, blushing, um, so that like this. That scene was further evidence to me of what you said about this a season being rushed, like the writing, the writing, the acting, the directing, like it just didn't hang together. It just didn't work. It just didn't work Okay.
Speaker 3:Yes, but it did give us this lovely moment. Yeah, I agree with that, and I feel like they were trying to do too much all at once. And the thing is, they do, they do all this. I mean, I'm even thinking when he lands in Miami and he's approached by the young twink who's like hello daddy.
Speaker 2:Oh, the twink is like hello daddy, like daddy. Yeah, he's not old enough to be daddy, uh like maybe I don't know, but that also did not read well, yeah, like it just didn't work. That was another moment where I was like wow, tom, I usually you sell me a lot harder on these things. I am just not buying you right now.
Speaker 3:And they made a similar joke a while ago when Amenadiel found out that Linda was pregnant, where he was going around, like do you have a good relationship with your father? And it was a young gay man who turned around and was like, oh, I love all my daddies and that worked because it felt natural. Like you know, it's completely unnatural for for someone to be going around. You have a good relationship with your father, but like if someone gets less.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the twink response felt yeah, yeah, yeah, it just didn't. Yes, I thank you for reminding me of that scene because I remember noting it while I watched it yeah, so, and that felt weird.
Speaker 3:And then just I will say, like the the thing that I appreciated about this story arc is and we'll get to Rory and Dan in a second but when Dan comes to Lucifer and Lucifer like says, like she is my daughter, and Dan's immediate reaction is like that is fantastic, congratulations. Having a daughter is the best. Like I really appreciated that. Yeah, having a daughter is the best. Like I really appreciated that, especially since she's an adult.
Speaker 3:So it's, it wasn't like, oh, it's such a shame that you missed her childhood, or like any of the things that that could have been like kind of a natural reaction. Like oh, wow, this is really tough, you're in a tough situation. I'm sure you feel terrible. It's like, no, this is great, go go have a relationship with her. You, you will not regret a second of it. And like that, that was really just lovely and profound in a way that was missing from the rest of these episodes. But, as you said before, we started recording the relation, the, the way that dan and rory interact with each other makes sense. Before you know who she is, yeah, we find out at the end of pin the tail on the daddy that rory is chloe's daughter as well, so must be some sort of time travel thing, in which case she would know who Dan was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and in previous episodes in this season it seems like she doesn't know who Dan is and the way that she treats Dan. There is no way that Rory would treat her sister's father with such cruelty Not at all. I just know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and knowing, knowing, I mean we see Trixie crying in this. And knowing that, like later on, we learn like the Trixie and Rory have a good relationship.
Speaker 2:They are sisters who care about each other and so, knowing the deep hole in Trixie, Well, even the way Trixie later, later, later in this season I don't remember which episode, but eventually Trixie and Dan actually do interact with one another and Trixie talks about how much her father meant to her. Yeah, and that was like in the year before Rory was born, and so having a very imperfect dad who is now dead I know you forget about the imperfect things, right, and the pedestal just gets taller and taller the longer they've been gone. There is no way that Rory would I mean she might not have known that Dan tried to kill him, to try to kill Lucifer. She might not have known that. She might not have known that Dan tried to kill him, tried to kill Lucifer. She might not have known that, but she would have recognized him.
Speaker 1:But, she would have known who Dan was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she would not have treated him so cruelly.
Speaker 3:And I like I am certain there are pictures of him. Oh my God, yeah, of course, and so she would have recognized him, even if she would have been like, oh that Dan Espinosa? Yeah, that just doesn't, it doesn't make sense, nope. And it is one of the reasons, like, I felt bad for the actress playing Rory, like she's joining an ensemble cast in the final season. Yeah, is a tough job, and she's joining an ensemble cast in the final season as an antagonist who becomes a protagonist. It's it's, it's yeoman's work. Yeah, but part of the reason why people are like rory, I think, is also the way she's treated dan, which is not the actress's fault, which has nothing to do with the actress. Yeah, I think the actress did as good did.
Speaker 2:I think she did a great job with what she had. Yeah, agreed, yeah, yeah, all right. Well, um, we've been overthinking for a minute. Should we transition to fluff? I've got some fluff. I have a little bit too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you go first uh, this is not exactly fluff. But I refuse to believe linda, who though we know she has had several professional ethical lapses would be writing a book about a patient, about a patient, using his full name and using him and his friends and her friends to get more information. Yeah, yeah, yeah, not buying it. Not buying it, and even with when we later find out that she's feeling a little at sea because her regular patients are not as interesting and exciting and challenging as working with celestials, even with that, she would at least change names. You know, like that just doesn't fit. So like that's a. It's not exactly fluff, but it's it's like. Keep your characters consistent.
Speaker 2:And that is not her character.
Speaker 2:Yeah, For me it's really silly, but like the way that Chloe holds the necklace, the the piece Amenadiel's necklace, like every time she like like she holds it like a little knife, like even just to show him that she still has it. And I just why wouldn't you put it on a leather cord around your neck, like Amenadiel had, and just pull it out for you, Like, do you still have it? Like, yep, Right here, Like a packer chest or something. It just looked ridiculous and like she would drop it and like every time it was like here it is and yeah, I don't know, like by the third time she like showed it.
Speaker 2:I was like, can you wear it like a menideal bed, like why are you doing that where?
Speaker 3:are you keeping it? How are you? Other humans who have worn it have worn it around their neck it.
Speaker 2:It just was a weird choice, it's weird yeah and um, and I'm surely overthinking it, but the way she keeps showing it off it's like vaguely phallic. I don't know. Well, I I'm wondering if they wanted to be worshiping on it, you know, like at the point when he says I'll put it in the safe and she's like no, there's, I don't know. It felt a little it was an odd choice and I don't think it was only German.
Speaker 3:I think it was a direct royal choice. I was wondering if they were going for a my precious type thing where, like she's, holding on to it because she can't bear to even not have her hands on it maybe, but then we see her with it, not in her hand, so yeah, so it's like pocket.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, it just something about it just didn't quite feel believable. Yeah so.
Speaker 3:So one other thing of little little fluff that I really enjoyed was when they were cartoons. They had three fingers and a thumb, and I noticed that because I very firmly believe that cartoon characters. There's a couple things with cartoon characters. They have three fingers and a thumb all cartoon characters, even if they don't normally have hands. There is no fourth finger and they all have the middle initial, j yeah, like Rocket J Squirrel and Bartholomew J Moose, yep. Or Bartholomew J Simpson, no, rocket.
Speaker 2:It's Rocket J Squirrel it's Moose, and Squirrel who's the moose? What's his name? Bullwinkle, bullwinkle.
Speaker 3:Bullwinkle, bullwinkle, j Moose. That's why I said Bartholomew, which is why all of my I believe pets should have J as a middle initial as well.
Speaker 2:Like Anthony J Anthony Crowley yes, like.
Speaker 3:Anthony J Anthony Crowley. But I had Bonanza J Cat. I don't know. I don't know what her last name was. It wasn't Guy Guy. Yeah, bonanza J Guy. I kind of stopped giving my animals my last name. So my first car was a you know this, but listeners don't 1972 Volkswagen Super Beetle, and I named her Fenchurch Audrey. And then I was going to give her the last name Guy, but then I realized what her initial spell was. So she was Fenchurch Audrey, volkswagen. So since then I've been a little cautious about giving my animals my last name. But now it's Birkin. Yeah, well, but it's Guy Birkin, which sounds like a social disease. But no hyphen, I did not hyphenate Guy Birkin because it sounded like a social disease. Like you don't want to mess with Emily, she's got Guy Birkin. She says she got it from a toilet seat, but that's not where it came from.
Speaker 2:All right, I don't want to think about Guy Decker then.
Speaker 3:Well, no, that doesn't sound like a social disease, that just sounds like a name I don't know, guy or like I don't even know all right, we we have devolved into the punchy.
Speaker 2:At this point, I think it's time to call it time. Time to go. Yeah, we've overthought enoughown enough. I will see you next time. See you next time.
Speaker 1:Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom, licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 4.0 License. Visit the show notes for the URL. I am an artificially generated voice powered by Narrakeetcom. Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix. Tracy and Emily are not affiliated with Fox, netflix nor WB. If you liked this episode, subscribe to keep overthinking with them and visit the show notes for other ways to connect.