With these two episodes we get some subtext about addiction and some supertext about racist policing. In “The Murder of Lucifer Morningstar,” the sisters realize on rewatch (especially in the context of our analysis of so many moments of mental health metaphors) that Chloe’s obsession with the super-strength the necklace provides is a stand-in for addiction.
“A Lot Dirtier Than That” provides a big chunk of the story arc that serves as penance for the five seasons of copaganda that came before it. Though the storytelling is heavy-handed in both its visuals and dialogue, our conversation argues the heavy-handedness was necessary in the face of the power of the trope that cops are unequivocally good guys.
Taken together these two episodes provide deeply meaningful moments around grief, loneliness, and regret, powerful social commentary around racism in policing, and seriously cringe-worthy second-hand embarrassment as Lucifer tries (too hard) to connect with the daughter he doesn’t yet have.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
With these two episodes we get some subtext about addiction and some supertext about racist policing. In “The Murder of Lucifer Morningstar,” the sisters realize on rewatch (especially in the context of our analysis of so many moments of mental health metaphors) that Chloe’s obsession with the super-strength the necklace provides is a stand-in for addiction.
“A Lot Dirtier Than That” provides a big chunk of the story arc that serves as penance for the five seasons of copaganda that came before it. Though the storytelling is heavy-handed in both its visuals and dialogue, our conversation argues the heavy-handedness was necessary in the face of the power of the trope that cops are unequivocally good guys.
Taken together these two episodes provide deeply meaningful moments around grief, loneliness, and regret, powerful social commentary around racism in policing, and seriously cringe-worthy second-hand embarrassment as Lucifer tries (too hard) to connect with the daughter he doesn’t yet have.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah, the plot which they overthink.
Speaker 2:I'm here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker. She does use a hyphen.
Speaker 3:It's true, and I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Bur. She does use a hyphen. It's true, and I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken. She does not use a hyphen, no hyphen.
Speaker 2:And together we are Lightbringers where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show. And yes, we're overthinking it.
Speaker 3:Yes, we are overthinking it, and today we're going to. We are overthinking it, and today we're going to overthink 605 and 606, the murder of Lucifer Morningstar, and a lot dirtier than that. Yes, so yeah, and so, listeners, if you're listening to this on the podcast, then you saw no break, but if you were one of our YouTube followers, you know there was a long break between recording our last episode and this one, so apologies.
Speaker 2:To be honest, we were like, okay, we need to record more of Lightbringers because we're going to run out of what we've already recorded. I was like I really don't want to watch any more of season six.
Speaker 3:I was the same way. If we weren't so close, I would have told you like it was fun, let's just call it but so close, so close. This one and then two more of our episodes, yeah, and then we'll round out the season, the series, we'll say that episode 606, about to get a lot dirtier.
Speaker 2:A lot dirtier than that. A lot dirtier than that Erin Dungy's guest starring performance as Officer Sonia Harris, although she's in several other episodes as well. But we'll hold off on that.
Speaker 3:Let's start with yeah, let's start with the Murder of Lucifer Morningstar. So when I watched it the first time and again I've said this before, but like everybody else who was already watching when season six dropped, I binged it Right and I think I was just slightly titillated by the Chloe like aggressively fighting with him and that one. And then you know she's on top of him with the sword and he's like I didn't see this coming, which I know is a kind of a pet peeve, it's a callback, but it is a callback in this show and so I was just kind of titillated by that and whatever it just like flew by In rewatch, especially in the frame of the way we have talked about the show in terms of analogies for mental health stuff, seeing that as a metaphor and analogy for substance abuse and addiction, was really really interesting to me. And the way that Chloe is kind of overcome by guilt and remorse when Lucifer says I didn't think you would be the one that would be my killer and she's like no, I would never hurt you, but while she's holding the knife to his throat yeah, and it's not just any knife, it is Azrael's blade which will wink him out of existence. So I thought that was a really.
Speaker 3:It was more interesting to me this time around in rewatch because of our framing and the way that we've been talking about it and also that we took our time with it. We really took our time with it, but you wasn't just like give me, give me, give me, give me, give me, give me. You know, I actually was like savoring it a little bit more and I was able to see some of those, those those additional subtexts which, for me in particular and I know you share this with me are not always available to me on a first watch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very interesting. I hadn't thought about it as like a substance abuse thing, that that and I think you're absolutely right, it's that's spot on. Like she's doing exactly what someone who is struggling with a substance abuse would do or any kind of addiction, or any kind of addiction. I appreciate it because it makes it clear that this can happen to anyone, even like the strongest person that Dan has ever met. He said the strongest woman I've ever met. But I'm sorry, I'm putting the word person in, putting the word person in eat it.
Speaker 3:When people say that I hate it when they're like, oh, she's a remarkable woman, no, she's a remarkable person anyway so I also think it's significant that it was this strength thing that, like no one could be like, oh well, you shouldn't be doing that anyway the way that someone might around substance use yeah and and there's, and there's very little judgment from Lucifer.
Speaker 3:I mean, the judgment comes really, even though he's the one that's endangered. He says it's not your fault, the blade does that to all humans. And it's Chloe who says no, I had lost control even before I touched the blade. This is me, I have to take responsibility, and so I think there's something really lovely in the modeling of both the person who is caught in the addiction, chloe, and also the loved one who, who is harmed and could have been harmed much, much worse by the addiction. So I think, in that sense, like I, I appreciated the modeling of what what that exchange can look like, which was one of love.
Speaker 2:And I I have to say so. I know there's a lot of Rory hate in the fandom, which I I get annoyed by because it feels knee jerk rather than necessarily responding to her character. But I will say, watching these two episodes, this time I was like Rory, you're giving, you're making it hard because so like Chloe's trying to apologize to her, like this was my fault that your father thought that you were going to try to kill him, and Rory is like no, no, he's awful, you're great, and I know that is. That could probably be a similar dynamic to um in a alcoholic family or a family where where a parent is dealing with, uh, with any kind of substance abuse, although she doesn't during Rory's childhood. But I was getting a little frustrated by that because it's like I know that Rory idolizes her mother and I think that there's something wonderful about that in a lot of ways. But it's frustrating because it's like about that in a lot of ways.
Speaker 3:But it's frustrating because it's like recognize that she's frail and human as well, please. Yeah, I see that I also. I believed it because we don't know it yet from these two episodes, but we find out in a future episode that rory's sent back because she's at her mother's deathbed.
Speaker 1:And so.
Speaker 3:I think that her viewing Chloe, this younger version of Chloe that she remembers from being a small child, it makes sense to me that she would idolize her, that she would reject. This is my fault, knowing that she's got mom's whole history of being a single parent and mom is dying in her time. So I hear what you're saying in terms of like, logically, and maybe even as like modeling that the show might model for us to remember that even our parents have feet of clay, and also in terms of characterization. It made sense to me that we don't see it yet, but especially, I know that's, that's where, that's that's a very good point.
Speaker 3:That's a very good point, yeah I mean, like now he's been gone 11 years, we can talk about the ways in which dad screwed up and like we wish he had done better, but like in the first few weeks or when we knew he was dying, it was a lot harder. Yeah, I mean, I didn't blame mom, but knowing that that's what's happening in Rory's timeline, I think it changes things for me.
Speaker 2:That's fair. I think that's fair. And it's not that I'd forgotten that, it's just part of it was I was kind of disappointed in Chloe in these two episodes and not like the lying about the blade and things like that. That's not exactly why I was disappointed in her, although the like it didn't help. But you know, recognizing that that is like some kind of addiction like that, that, that was like reasonable. But in the second episode, when she was kind of dismissing a man, a deal and I don't know, I, I just I I feel like her feet of clay are are on display here well, let's talk about the second episode, because I think that was intentional and and and important actually.
Speaker 2:So, oh sure, sure, sure, I sure. It's one of those where, since I'm seeing this 360 view of Chloe, and like anyway, go ahead, go ahead.
Speaker 3:We don't have to talk about the second no.
Speaker 2:I do, I do want to talk about it. I mean, I have a lot more to say about the second episode than I do the first.
Speaker 3:Yeah, me too, me too, me too. But honestly, the first episode is a little bit forgettable except for the except for the fight scene between Chloe and Lucifer. Yeah, Um the.
Speaker 2:The one thing from that episode that I held on to is like please don't do your sex math in front of me. Yeah, that I appreciate it. It was worth the price of admission, yeah.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, cute, yeah. So let's talk about this one episode six, which I understand that db woodside fought for a bit, which you know. So it it. It aired in these aired in 2021. So this is after george floyd's murder. So I think that everyone in the cast, in particular DB Woodside, really grappling with the fact that they've been making propaganda for five years when George Floyd was murdered, and so this episode, the story arc, was a bit of a penance, I think. Well, no, actually, I know DB Woodside had to fight for the episode about Caleb, which was several seasons ago, that was season four.
Speaker 3:Yes, I don't know if he had to fight for this one.
Speaker 3:I think that all of the cast were grappling with it. I know Tom Ellis, in his private like in his social media presence, had done some work around, using his platform to to promote anti-racist work, and so I think that a lot of folks who were involved in making making this show grappling with with the fact that they've been making propaganda and this story, this story arc, is a bit of penance. So I honestly, like I texted you while I was watching it yesterday. It was a little bit hard for me because this episode is all on the one side with Rory and Lucifer. There's all this secondhand embarrassment because he's trying so hard and it's just, oh, it's so cringy, painful, yeah, and then they cut over to this racist policing. So it's like back and forth between this like secondhand embarrassment, which I have you and I both don't care for, yeah, and then this racist policing stuff which is just so infuriating and it was, it's hard, it's hard to watch as important as this episode is, because I completely agree with you.
Speaker 3:I'm glad we have season six just for this episode, and also it is hard to watch.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I imagine for other members of the fandom the Rory and Lucifer subplot is comic relief. Yeah, Like, if they're not, if you don't feel the secondhand embarrassment like Tracy and I do, you probably were like, oh, thank goodness for the Santa and Christmas gifts thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which I just couldn't. It was yeah, I was, I was yeah.
Speaker 2:It was awful, I was playing Solitaire on my phone so I had to launch that directly.
Speaker 3:I had a second screen as well. It was really hard for me, yeah, yeah. So but the reason I wanted to bring us here because I think Chloe's Feet of Clay, chloe, is the proxy for the showrunners here and for so many white Americans who think they understand how the world works, because they've never. It's like they've never. Oh yeah, in this episode, chloe's feet of clay, her disappointing behavior, was necessary. Oh sure, yeah, for the work, the penance that the show was doing. We had to see and we had to see as the viewers, we had to see that she was wrong in order, because she's our proxy here, those of us who are white Americans watching.
Speaker 2:Something that I felt like the show did very well was when Reuben calls Amenadiel in and Amenadiel thinks he's going to get yelled at and Reuben's like I remember you, you met me at a really tough, bad time. That's not the man I am, and Chloe had said something about like, oh, he had to have gone to sensitivity training and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and Amenadiel kind of relaxes a little bit like, oh, okay, like the LAPD is good, you know that guy, he screwed up and you know we all screw up, but then immediately pulls the rug out from under him and clearly this, uh, mikhail is the murderer, and so I appreciated that, because that is so clearly what happens where something like sensitivity training teaches you how to be a better racist.
Speaker 3:It certainly can yeah.
Speaker 2:Um and that's I mean. That's not always the case, but a lot of times people learn the language of progressive justice movements without actually doing any of the interior work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I want to. I actually want to nuance what you said. It teaches one to hide their racism more effectively. Yes, Right. That's. That's actually the what. What is happening?
Speaker 3:And that happens when you approach it as if it's a transaction and not a transformation. You know so. I do some training anti-racist training in my day job and I know if a client comes to me and they say just tell me what words I'm not allowed to say, that person is not, they're not going to get it, they're not ready, they're not there because they're treating it as if it's a transaction and that's not what's happening here.
Speaker 2:So Well, and I had. I remembered the plot from when I saw this the first time, but I didn't. I didn't remember the nuances or anything like that, so I didn't recall that. It was like a like oh okay, he's, he's, he's learned, he's better. And then the rug pulled out. But I immediately, this time around and I don't remember if I did the first time around I clocked. When he says that's not the man I am, because I know just from personal experience, I know from being involved in certain types of diversity training, when people say that's not who I am involved in certain types of diversity training, when people say that's not who I am, they are incapable of recognizing like that it might be. And so like, if you say something like that's not who I want to be and I'm working not to be someone who allows that to happen in myself or near me, and it's the I. I so appreciate that writing because it makes it clear. It's a very clear distillation of like that white fragility, like it's also a call that it's a.
Speaker 3:It's a call out to the way that so many people were talking after george floyd's murder saying this is not who we are as a country.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah it, it is.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's what I mean. Like you are what you do, right, like if it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck, which doesn't mean it's who we have to be. Yes, so I think that you know that that caught, he's caught in that good, bad binary. Like you know, racists are bad and I'm not bad. Therefore, I can't be racist. Yes, not how it works. Yes, not how it works. So, yeah, I think I actually I think that was very good writing. I agree, in fact, I think that whole storyline.
Speaker 3:I didn't love the cringy stuff with Rory and Lucifer and I didn't love the racist policing, because it is so painful, because I wish that's not who we were, but we are, and I think it did a really good job of bringing an audience who didn't come here for that Right, they came here for a handsome devil, and I think it does a really good job of bringing them along. And that's exactly why Chloe needed to be like, no, that's not what's happening, of course we're good, so that she could have that realization along with us. I think the writing was really good on that story arc.
Speaker 2:Yes, the thing that I think is part of the reason why this is necessary is the fact that when I first started watching the show in 2018, that the main character, other than the title character, is supposed to be above reproach really good person who works for the LAPD and I was like uh-huh, yep, I'm watching. When my earliest understanding of the differences in what it means to be a black person versus a white person in America was because of Rodney King being beaten on camera by the LAPD in the early 90s. I believe that was so like I as like I don't know, I was 13, 14 years old, I was a kid. I was a kid and it was clear that the LAPD, specifically, were committing brutality for no reason and those lessons don't stick for white folks. Like so that you know 22 years later in you know 20,.
Speaker 2:I didn't watch it until 2018 or so, but however many years later, I can be like uh-huh, yep, yep, yep. Okay, they made a like a one, one word comment about your corrupt little organization. But yeah, lapd, they're good guys and that's that's something that we need to grapple with, and that was something in watching it this time. I was just like really, really, could Chloe be like? Oh yeah, I mean, I know there's some bad stuff that happens sometimes, but generally it works out. I'm like really which is not fair of me, because that's who I was in 2018 when I was watching it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, all of those things and one of the things that I think that was heavy-handed but needed to be, and I'm glad that it was is that final scene, or not quite final scene, but the scene in the graveyard with michaela, when, like, we're relaxing because the bad guy put his gun down and then the cops show up and we realize that michaela's life is in danger again and Amanda Deal has to actually stand between his colleagues and this girl. And it was heavy handed and I'm glad that it was.
Speaker 2:So that reminded me of. There were two moments that prior to George Floyd's murder that really helped me understand the fact that my privilege shields me no matter what happens, and one of them was the final scene in the movie Get Out, where Chris played by Daniel Kuleya, I think, is how you pronounce his last name he's getting away, he's fighting with Rose, his girlfriend, who is evil, and he's got the upper hand. And then they hear sirens and see lights and you see her kind of like relax into a smile, like oh, there's no way that you can survive this. And then it turns out that it's his friend and and he gets away. And that's actually apparently because Jordan Peele decided it was too bleak for it to end with.
Speaker 3:That wasn't the original ending, yeah.
Speaker 2:And watching that moment and realizing that I have that same ability that Rose does and I truly believe I would never use it. But I can't know. I cannot know that I would never use that. Oh, I'm just a sweet little white lady. I can't know that.
Speaker 2:And so that's part of why I felt like that heavy handed moment in the episode is so important because we need to be, through fiction, in the headspace of the person who is the person, who is the person, who is the person who is the person who is the person who is the person who is the person who is the person who is the person who is the person, who is the person, who is the person, who is the person, who is the person who, in the headspace of the person, who knows that they have something to fear from the cops. And I got there because of Jordan Peele, because I'm watching Chris do everything he can to try to survive. He is the hero, he is the protagonist, and it is clear he is there alone, and so I am entirely identifying with him. And the same thing with this young woman who I was thinking about, like the casting, there's something about her that is and you know, some of it is she's a good actress.
Speaker 2:She seems scared, she seems vulnerable. But there's something about her that also like know some of it is she's. She's a good actress, she's she's. She seems scared, she seems vulnerable. But there's something about her that also like I don't know about you, but I felt very protective of her and you know some of that's writing, some of that's acting choices, some of that's direct directorial choices. Yeah, I think the director.
Speaker 3:The directorial choices were also very good in that, like they give us more than once the, the juxtaposition of the truly bad guy who's the white dude, like just standing there completely comfortable and then michaela cowering with her hands over her head, uh, and we see that twice. And yes, and the bad cop saying get her, take her down. About this young woman who's cowering. Yeah, and that visual metaphor, I think again very heavy handed and also what we needed in 2021.
Speaker 2:Mm, hmm, well, and honestly still need. Yeah, we still need today. Yeah, we still need today. I I believe it was in 2020, but I posted something on social media about the fact that there's so many of the things that so much of the media we consume casts the police as the good guys and how I really need to to like grapple with that, and an acquaintance of mine, who I know tends to be relatively conservative, is like well, it's because they are the good guys. I'm like well for us, for us, they're the good guys and are they, are they even for us? And like why do we believe that they're the good guys? Why? Where does that come from? Why does that? Why is that something that we're so quick to agree to in?
Speaker 3:fiction. I mean, we know why it's because of fiction. It's because we all grew up watching. You know all of the. I mean remember, when we first started recording for this, for our show, I remember thinking like, well, what else would it be besides a procedural? It's like our default chassis on which we build all episodic television yes or not all but a lot. We build all episodic television, yes or not, all but a lot, a lot of episodic television.
Speaker 2:A lot of episodic television, you know.
Speaker 3:I can remember the theme song for Hill Street Blues that like mom would watch after we went to bed when we were kids.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, I mean it's.
Speaker 3:And there was Barney Miller and I mean like there have been so many and they were comedies and they were dramas and law and order. The cops are the good guys. That is the way that we have been taught, based on so much pop culture. It's not a single show in every genre, you know like there's the absurd with brooklyn 99, and then there's the very serious with law and order, svu.
Speaker 2:you know it's well, and then there's like there's noir films and gritty and like I mean there's, there's so much, and even even our superhero films. So I've been thinking, thinking about Batman quite a bit recently because my youngest really likes Batman and even, like he loves Spider-Man as well and so like Spider-Man Into the Spider-Verse. As much as I adore that movie and it is fantastic, miles' dad is a cop. Miles' dad is a cop and like he objects to Spider-man because he's a vigilante which fair but at the same time it's like his dad doesn't really understand what's going on in the world.
Speaker 2:And then you know, like batman's kind of a fascist, like a billionaire who stops petty criminals yeah yeah, with the help of commissioner gordon, like what, the, what and even even paw patrol, like the, the. My kids have outgrown it at this point, but they really were into paw patrol and why not? They're adorable puppies and I do believe yeah, they're cops. I do believe in about 30 years we're gonna get a gritty reboot of the dogs yeah, the gen zeds uh grow up that are making films.
Speaker 3:Aye, aye, aye, yeah. So another thing that I think that the writers did really really well, as did the actors and the directors. So we're given that moment to grapple with, where this young woman is towering and very nearly dies. And then we see Amenadiel and and Harris talking about it afterwards and that like, how do you do it? And, um, you know, if we hadn't been there she would have died and the and the, the beats were so tight. If we hadn't been there she would have. He hadn't even finished saying the line before her was like, but we were there, we were, and that's why I do it.
Speaker 3:And I thought that was also a really lovely lesson where so amenity has got Chloe on the one side, who is sort of saying like we'll figure this out and get to the bottom of it and Chloe's naive and Chloe doesn't understand, and also thinking about root causes is really important. And then he's got Harris saying I do the most help I can and it, and it breaks my heart that these kids are afraid of this uniform. If I'm out here, I can make a difference and like holding both of those, that direct service and root cause work. Both are necessary if we're going to get to a future where kids aren't afraid, don't have to be afraid, don't have reason to be afraid of the uniform I thought that was was really, really powerful.
Speaker 2:I I also. I appreciated that because I know, um, like something that can be. I feel strange talking about this because I am not black, but, uh, seeing people from marginalized communities go into policing can feel very odd, and I am coming at it from a very privileged position. But, like when Amenadiel the character was like, I think I want to become a police officer I was like and I had a similar reaction in the TV show of New Girl with Winston decided, like he wasn't sure what he wanted to do with his life. It was several seasons on. He realized he was very good at solving, like puzzles, mysteries, and so he decided he wanted to become a police officer. And that New Girl I can't remember exactly when it ran, but it ended like 2016, 2017. It's been a while ago and I remember I was watching it sometime in the last four years and I was just like, oh God, no, don't make, don't make Winston do that.
Speaker 2:And so what I did appreciate about this episode was that it made it clear that there is a place for even actors playing characters. You know, black actors playing characters who are police officers, like Maren Dungy, who I she is a character actor who I've seen in many, many different shows. She is Terry Crews' wife. On Brooklyn Nine-Nine she plays that character, and she was a character in Better Off Ted and I've just kind of like every time I see her I was like, oh hey, it's my friend, like I just really like her a lot. And then I follow her on social media and she is very outspoken and uses the platform that she has to do to put good in the world and so like I really appreciated, like on kind of a metal level, like that there is a way that putting on a police uniform, even as an actor, can also work towards changing the brutality of the police system that we have in our country.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, so I'm going to move us along a little bit. Sure, because I want to talk about the scene with chloe and dan. I think was that in the first episode. That was in the first episode. Yes, yeah, so I'm backing us up a little bit. But that scene where Lucifer realizes that she might still be able to see him while she holds the necklace, um, and, and that kind of the exchange between them, I found myself, I actually it made me cry, me too, and I was, I was grateful for that kind of moment of where we just sort of see these two people whose lives are inextricably connected, who were no longer romantically involved, and the way that Chloe is able to say she was like, grateful she was able to be there for him when he passed, and, and her being really vulnerable and and and talking about being scared and I don't know. I really that scene deeply moved me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it struck me in that so often, after someone you love passes away, you think like if only I could just talk to them one more time. And she got to do that.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And this is someone who knows her in a way and it's not better, but a different way than anyone else in her life. And that's true of like you know. You know me in a different way than my spouse does, then you know our parents do. And that's true of like you know. You know me in a different way than my spouse does, than you know our parents do, and so being able to be the fullness of the person because that person knows you when they're gone is just it's heart wrenching. It's just it's heart-wrenching.
Speaker 3:There's something really again like satisfying and comforting though, in that after the, she says give us a couple hours, and then he disappears.
Speaker 3:She can't see him because I guess the sword has been taken to heaven, but he's still there.
Speaker 3:We see him, we know he hears her in that final thing that she says then when she thanks him that she needed this and and and thanks him for coming and for saying the things that he said, and there's something really really comforting and satisfying and hopeful about that. That even when she didn't like she didn't know whether or not her message was getting across she thought that it was, she wasn't sure, but we know that it was to the deceased I found that also like a deeply comforting in. You know, she got that thing that we all fantasize about with someone who's passed, which is like just if I could just talk to them one more time. And then, even once he was not there, there's this reassurance in that moment, like the mechanism by which she was able to see him and hear him was gone, but that didn't mean that her message, that her, her love was not received, and that like as a sort of metaphor for the relationship we have with those who've passed is also like deeply comforting and satisfying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is not really related to Lucifer, but you probably. This happens to you too, where I dream about dad relatively frequently. Yeah, like once or twice a year at this point. It used to be a lot more frequently, used to be a lot more, and this has happened before with previous people who've passed away in our lives, and often the dream is that there, there, there was a mistake, not really dead?
Speaker 3:He's not really dead. Yeah, I've had that dream.
Speaker 2:And when I wake up the next morning and I have had this my whole life where I will dream something and it will be a few days later when I'm like, wait, that didn't really happen. And it's because I'm not thinking directly about it, it's just, you know, some more background noise. And so I really do feel like I don't believe that there's any kind of consciousness or anything after death, but it does feel like I visited with dad. When I dream about him, and there is this sense that, like, I feel like, while he's still in dreams, to the point where, like, it'll be a day or two where I'm like, no, like I know that that wasn't real, that, that, that kind of that keeps the, the, the, the spirit of who dad was alive, in a way.
Speaker 3:That's, you know, like it's just kind of lovely, it's like Coco right, they, the people, don't truly pass on until we, until they're forgotten.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, that is really helpful. And the the one thing that now I know this has to do more with child actor, but the fact that we don't see Trixie in these two episodes and the fact that you know, like she's at science camp for the summer and they they talk a little bit at like how is she? She's doing as well as she could be.
Speaker 3:Well, we did see her. We, we see Dan watching. Well, we comfort her as she, as she sobs and says I miss my daddy, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But and some of this is that I have experienced the loss of a father. I have not experienced the loss of like a co-parent, but that that is something that, yeah, and I know we get the moment between Dan and Trixie later, yeah, further along.
Speaker 3:But it and we needed to save that.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:The storytellers needed to save that moment. They needed Trixie to not be there. Yeah, because that was their punchline, that was their how he, that's his get out of hell card, mm-hmm.
Speaker 2:And it's like I guess what just struck me is like she's at science camp for the summer was just like oh, that does not seem like the right place for a kid who's gone through trauma well, there's that, there's that.
Speaker 3:But I mean, we've said we said before that season six writing feels a little bit rushed. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah. So I feel like we're we've hit the the high notes of what I wanted to make sure that we talked about. Do you want to talk about at all ella starting to think that something is wrong, or should we save that for the future episodes, when it gets?
Speaker 2:um, I'd like to save that for future episodes. I do want to talk a little bit about Lucifer and Rory bonding over a bridge over troubled waters. Yeah, so like, as you as we mentioned the the all the different ways he was trying to to connect with her in that second episode, we're just cringy and like brianna hildebrand's like wtf face was pretty amazing I think she was cast really really well, oh yeah, yeah, like she looks like she could be their child, like in terms of just like her phenotype, her facial features, etc.
Speaker 3:Which I think is really I I don't know. I like, I believe it. I believe that they're related in that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then the like, her acting choices, like when she's messing with maze and Eve and a mena deal like it. It just like it. It works, yeah, and then. But also her, her, her anger and sadness and and upset also really works, yeah, and then. But also her, her, her anger and sadness and and upset also really works.
Speaker 2:So it makes sense that that Lucifer would throw himself into like okay, I gotta be there for her now and like, do the the over the top Lucifer thing that he does? So like, I totally get that. And so I appreciated that that's like it was in character that he would go over the top. And then it also fits that it was music that brought them together, because that is who he is. We saw that with father frank. That's how he became friends with Father Frank. And also it makes sense that he wouldn't think of it, you know, and that moment was just lovely. It was a lovely moment and, yeah, I really appreciated that.
Speaker 2:There is one other thing that I'd forgotten that I wanted to mention. Lucifer has made it clear from the very beginning that he wants to be a good father. I really get tired of the TV, the pop culture phenomenon, where someone who has no interest in having kids, becomes a parent and is, like, immediately, a good one. And there's no question of like and like. It's not this particular show, it's not this particular, because character-wise it makes sense you actually have made this point before.
Speaker 3:It's been a very long time since we recorded it, but you made this point, yeah, in a our two episodes ago of of light bringers, that this is a thing that that that pop culture does, especially to female characters.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and that's.
Speaker 3:It's just infuriating that, uh, that we, we get this yeah, I, I agree, and also to the show's credit, like, I think, the moment between lucifer and maize, when she's like are you asking for my advice? Like that conversation, or maybe it was with dan, I don't remember at some point somebody says like, just don't, that's why I don't want kids, and he's like, yeah, me too. But here I am, yeah, and so I feel like they're. They did much more so than like, say, big Bang Theory, where they made it Penny did not want kids, ever, ever, ever. And then like she's pregnant, yay, yeah, and there was no grappling.
Speaker 3:Like I feel like they at least acknowledge that when he says right, but here I am and here she is, and so I feel like that actually doesn't make it okay, cause this is a pattern, and also I feel like it handled it more sensitively than than other examples of the pattern have and do.
Speaker 3:When you talked about it before. You talked about the fact that you've always known that you wanted to be a parent, and also how infuriating it is that people just say, oh well, you'll change your mind. Two characters we make them change their minds so that we which is it's a, it's a reinforcing pattern where we say to young women like, oh, you'll change her. And then pop culture shows us women like penny changing their minds without going through any steps of like.
Speaker 2:I knew this wasn't what I wanted, but I'm going to make the most of the situation that we're in. You know and and you know this isn't what I wanted, but since it's happening, I want to make sure that I do the best I can.
Speaker 3:Even like we have so few examples in pop culture of just like. I just don't want that for me, oh my goodness, I know. I just don't want that for me. I like kids. Kids are great, but not for me. I won't be a good parent, I don't want it, and that's a legitimate choice. We are not shown that as a legitimate choice in pop culture. Yeah yeah, there's always something wrong with the childless, especially woman If she's childless by choice.
Speaker 2:There's something wrong with her emotionally, I have to say. I feel like Sex and the City is one of the only shows that has done this. There's an episode where they talk about abortion and I think it's when Miranda realizes that she's pregnant with her son and Samantha talks about she's had two abortions and she has no regrets. Carrie has had an abortion and she's dating Aiden. At the time, I never watched the show.
Speaker 3:You're telling me this like I know the characters. Just FYI, I'm not a Sex and the City girl.
Speaker 1:I have no idea.
Speaker 3:Like I know the four main women, but when you talk about their love interests, like no idea.
Speaker 2:Okay, so she's dating John Corbett. So you know who that is. Chris in the Morning. Chris in the Morning yeah, I never liked him because of his response to her Like when she's she's like talking about what's, what's going on with Miranda and he, he's like, well, you would never have an abortion Right, and she feels like she has to lie to him. And then later on she tells him the truth and I'm just like fuck that shit, because she would have been a bad mother, Um, she would not have been able to like that was not right for her and it's her body.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And that like the fact that the show does not shame Samantha for, like, saying loudly and proudly I have had two abortions, I have no regrets. If you want to talk about it, miranda, let's talk about it. And Miranda ultimately decides to have the baby, not because she has any shame about the idea of terminating the pregnancy, but because she realizes maybe this is my baby, like, maybe this is the time, this is the place I thought I might want kids and maybe I should just like that this is it, this is the right time. And that's amazing, like it grapples with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I, it grapples with it. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to bring us back.
Speaker 2:Yes, because Lucifer is the show we're talking about now.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah. So in fact we've been talking long enough that I think I'm going to, unless there's another like key point that you want to make sure that you make. I'm going to ask if you noticed any fluff that you wanted to share. Noticed any?
Speaker 2:fluff that you wanted to share.
Speaker 3:So the woman that Rory flirts with in the other car, the woman that looks like Steven Tyler.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did not get what. Now I know I understand that they wanted her to be older than Rory for that to be a reason why Lucifer like disapproved and tried to scare her off.
Speaker 3:But I didn't, yeah, yeah, I don't know, especially because later lucifer's sort of offering her like sex and drugs and rock and roll, like why did he care?
Speaker 2:yeah yeah yeah, so, and yeah, that was, that was a weird moment I also have to say like Lucifer's beard is too much Like it's. It's the five o'clock shadow he's always had, but it's like more. It's like a seven o'clock shadow and it's like dude. Why, why, why?
Speaker 3:why I didn't. I did not notice that.
Speaker 2:So those are the only couple of only couple things. Oh, I did look it up because I was like the singing at the end. I was like, is that Rory? Is that Brianna Hildebrand? And I looked it up and she's a singer. So you know, obviously it was not being recorded in the moment, but that is her voice the.
Speaker 3:Actually that was a little, a little bit of a speed bump for me. It was clear to me that was her voice, but it's also clear that she was lip-syncing. To a studio recorded like that, the sound quality was just off. Yeah, sort of an acoustic sitting in the penthouse, yeah it just I don't. There was something about it that just felt off off in that in the actual moment, like the music was lovely, the moment was lovely, but there was something that didn't match between the two so, yeah, yeah, that that definitely.
Speaker 3:I noticed that as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying to think if there's any other fluff that I want to share what uh well about ella and uh like when she's like trying to hint at a mena deal. Yeah, and like I know he's focused, but I feel like he would have like picked up the hints well, especially when she's looking for wings or a halo, yeah like the wings.
Speaker 2:I can kind of understand because it's just because it could just be patting his back, you know, in a kind of awkward way. But then when she then was like looking for the halo, it's just like, oh come on, you're smart if he doesn't have.
Speaker 3:Hey, like if halos aren't really a thing then maybe I, I don't know. Yeah it, it was definitely. It seemed like he would have caught on to something, especially then when he like slips and says so he does, he goes to his celestial like I would know if something were happening I would feel it yeah, so he eventually yeah, yeah, yeah, although it is significant that the she led with her sock yeah, which was, I mean they wrote it that way to make it easier for him to dismiss it and and also, like she's smart.
Speaker 2:She wouldn't leave with her sock.
Speaker 3:I don't think she would leave with the sock. Yeah, she would leave with the frog that fell out of the sky onto her Jeep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. Rushed, rushed, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, this has been fun, sort of just partay, and like he's doing the dancing and I'm just like so I kind of love embarrassing my children, like I I try not to do it in public, like just when we're in the house. But like I was not, I was, I was rory in that moment oh, it was not, it was, it was hard to watch.
Speaker 3:I found it really hard to watch. I found that his song number hard to watch. Uh, yeah, yeah, it was not enjoyable for me, not fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, all right, well, until next time, m until next time our theme song is feral angel waltz by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom, licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 4.0 License. Visit the show notes for the URL. I am an artificially generated voice powered by Narrakeetcom. Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix. Tracy and Emily are not affiliated with Fox, netflix nor WB. If you liked this episode, subscribe to keep overthinking with them and visit the show notes for other ways to connect.