In this penultimate episode of Lightbringers, the Guy sisters continue to notice the moments and threads of season 6 that seem to point to a rushed (and self-amusing) writers’ room. From the unprofessional move of Linda’s book (why didn’t they just make it fiction?) to the disappointingly milquetoast Carroll, there are story and character beats that felt forced. At the same time, we deeply appreciate Chloe-as-audience-proxy in the conversation about how some people don’t have the choice to walk away from the fight against racism.
We spend considerable time thinking through the casting and writing choices surrounding Adam. What are the implications about the human species if the first man is guilty of toxic masculinity? Why cast a white dude as the first man? In the end, we realized regardless of our analysis, the choices the show made about Adam will have pissed of the right people (probably the same ones who boycotted Netflix because of Good Omens, even though the latter streams on Amazon Prime).
Regular listeners will be comforted to know that our appreciation for Tom Ellis’ looks has not faded over these many seasons, and in fact, Emily is adamant that Tom in a tuxedo shirt with suspenders is all she needs on her tv screen.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
In this penultimate episode of Lightbringers, the Guy sisters continue to notice the moments and threads of season 6 that seem to point to a rushed (and self-amusing) writers’ room. From the unprofessional move of Linda’s book (why didn’t they just make it fiction?) to the disappointingly milquetoast Carroll, there are story and character beats that felt forced. At the same time, we deeply appreciate Chloe-as-audience-proxy in the conversation about how some people don’t have the choice to walk away from the fight against racism.
We spend considerable time thinking through the casting and writing choices surrounding Adam. What are the implications about the human species if the first man is guilty of toxic masculinity? Why cast a white dude as the first man? In the end, we realized regardless of our analysis, the choices the show made about Adam will have pissed of the right people (probably the same ones who boycotted Netflix because of Good Omens, even though the latter streams on Amazon Prime).
Regular listeners will be comforted to know that our appreciation for Tom Ellis’ looks has not faded over these many seasons, and in fact, Emily is adamant that Tom in a tuxedo shirt with suspenders is all she needs on her tv screen.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah, the plot which they overthink.
Speaker 2:I'm here with my sister, Emily Guy-Burken. She does not use a hyphen.
Speaker 3:And I am here with my sister Tracy Guy-Deurken. She does not use a hyphen and I am here with my sister, tracy Guy-Decker, who does use a hyphen.
Speaker 2:And together this is Lightbringers, where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show. And yeah, we're overthinking it.
Speaker 3:So much.
Speaker 2:And today, Em, we're getting so close to the end. Today we're going to be overthinking we're getting so close to the end. Today we're going to be overthinking 607 and 608, my best fiends wedding, and save the devil, save the world. So it's the second to last episode for us. So these two episodes we've got again, as with so much of season six, like the writer's room is just having a good time and you know, more power, more power to them for having so much fun. So in um my best fiends wedding, we've got the run up to Eve and mazes wedding, the sort of internal, there's drama on two fronts. There's drama between maize and eve, precipitated by the appearance of adam, and then there's also drama with lucifer and rory.
Speaker 3:So and there is um, I believe it's in that episode, maybe it's in the one there is a coda to 606, the episode that really took on the racism in the LAPD. So when Chloe sees Rory's knife wings for the first time and she's kind of scared that what that means that maybe she's going to grow up feeling insecure, unsafe and unsafe yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, she shouldn't return to the LAPD, and I just I want to highlight that moment because Amenadiel says to her like you have a choice, not everybody does yes, yes, because I. That was another thing that I really appreciated and feel like this season is worth the price of admission for that, for the entire story arc, with Sonya played by Aaron Dungy and Amenadiel's response to Chloe and showing what it means to be a white ally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, as we said in our last episode, chloe serves as a audience proxy for white viewers who maybe didn't come to this show for this kind of definitely didn't come to this show for this kind of thinking. So, you know, bringing, bringing her along, brings us along as the white viewer. So, yes, yes, yeah, great, that's a great place to make sure we get out loud for us. But let's talk about Adam and the appearance of Adam and the appearance of adam. So he shows up and he's very condescending to eve, like it's time to come home, and he keep calling her babe, um too, yeah, yeah, and the whole the arc between these two episodes.
Speaker 2:we in the next, in the second episode, we say you know, dr Linda taught me that I have something called toxic masculinity and it's hurting me too and like, on the one hand, I sort of dig it that we're talking about this out loud and like calling it what it is about this out loud and like calling it what it is, and, on the other hand, by assigning it to Adam, the very first human being, it bothers me. I prefer to believe that toxic masculinity is cultural. It's a thing that we've taught and that we've passed down by teaching. If we say that Adam is guilty of it, as in the first man, does that then imply that it's somehow like baked into the DNA, baked into the dna? Yeah, I mean to play devil's advocate which I loved it, by the way, when lucifer and I don't remember which episode says to play my advocate, but to play devil's advocate on myself.
Speaker 2:Here, though, adam is clearly guilty of it. I mean. No question that, that that's unequivocal. But we're also given to believe that he can change, overcome it somehow. I mean he still has work to do, even at the last moment. We see him. But there is an implication at least I believe we're meant to see, an implication that he can see it and undo it.
Speaker 2:So you know, that is a little bit of more corroborating like what, how I would like to believe toxic masculinity operates in in human males. But it's still I don't know. Like and I gotta be honest, I didn't see this in my first round this is like in savoring it, in overthinking it, for Lightbringers, I'm seeing it. I definitely didn't see that as a thing when I watched this the first time, but watching it now to prepare for you, I was definitely left with like actually I don't want Adam to be guilty of toxic masculinity, like it's fine that he and Eve no longer are a good couple, if they ever were, but to assign him toxic masculinity and gaslighting and just the gross um underestimation of women in general and Eve in particular, I don't know, I find it disheartening, to be honest.
Speaker 3:So that actually kind of dovetails nicely with my reaction both the first time I saw it and this time was wow, it's weird, they have a white guy playing Adam.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Because I thought that the choice of Inbar Lavi as Eve felt reasonable. She's Israeli Life began in the Middle East and while I think Good Omens' portrayal of Adam and Eve, where they both like dark skinned what we call black folks, makes more sense to me, if we're gonna be like overthinking this, I could see in Barlevy making sense, whereas Adam is like pasty, frat, bro, total frat.
Speaker 3:So that got me the first time I watched it. Now, watching it this time, I was like, well, he's kind of like the ur-frat bro. And so of course, they hired a white actor to play this toxic masculinity gaslighting, terrible boyfriend dude, because that's who they're lampooning, that's who they're like, what they want to make the comment commentary about. And so, like, there's layers upon layers, because, like, there's the like. Okay, we don't want to make it seem like well, I'm assuming that if they had this thought, who knows if they ever thought, like we do in the writer's room, like, do we want to make it that Adam, the very first man, had toxic masculinity? Okay, if we're going to do that, like, let's not make him a black dude, cause we're already like, got some weird stuff with race throughout this, so let's make him a white dude, even though that doesn't necessarily make logical sense. Like and like the.
Speaker 3:Thing is they're going to piss off the right people, no matter what. When Good Omens came out, I remember Neil Gaiman was responding to some assholes on Twitter who were just like part of the woke indoctrination you have Adam and Eve being black, and that was when they started a petition to boycott Netflix when it was on Amazon Prime, and I remember Neil Gaiman's response to that was just like great, I don't really want you watching it anyway. So by doing all of this, this storyline with Adam, they are pissing off those same people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, bravo, yes, absolutely, Let are pissing off those same people.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, which I'm bravo. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Let's piss yeah, yeah, yeah, let's talk about the um, the actual drama of the story, though, like that's kind of meta on some of the choices. Let's talk about the drama of the story. So Adam comes in, he's a jerk and then through some you know, hijinks, shenanigans, we actually learn that Maze herself was the one who, through different networks, like tipped Adam off, that that they were getting married in some sort of self-sabotage, kind of intentionally, because Eve had had said something in an earlier episode about how Maze would be a good mother. And Maze does not want to be a mother and she knows she'll be a bad one. And and actually this, this fits nicely with conversations that you and I have had about this season because of Lucifer finding out that he's married, and we've had this conversation actually in every one of our last three episodes apparently one of my pet peeves, which Emily doesn't remember from episode to episode because we have had so long between them, but it's actually. It's almost as if the writers were retroactively listening to you, em, in the way that Eve is like you don't have kids, fine, yeah, you know, like it's just a big deal. She doesn't try to talk her out of it. She doesn't try to talk Maze out of it or like tell her she's wrong or somehow like think she knows better. So I thought that was very interesting to me watching it with our conversations in mind.
Speaker 2:But anyway, what I really, what I really wanted to dig into is this drama, around the layers of this drama. So there's Maze's self there, there's maze's self-sabotage, there's also, like that, the weirdness of maze who looks just like her mother lilith, because it's the same actress who was adam's first wife, about whom eve feels some, some degree of jealousy or inadequacy. At least I think that can be interpreted, interpreted from the dialogue. And and then the scene. You know where they're up in the penthouse and adam is tied up because adam has abducted linda and maize pretends to be her mom and is like talking to Adam as to torture him, but it's actually torturing Eve. It's so, it's so fucked up yes.
Speaker 2:The word that was on the tip of my tongue, though, was contrived, which is stupid to say because the whole show is contrived, but I didn't believe that whole storyline. Like, not that maze doesn't seem like a character that would self-sabotage she totally does, but that particular way that was actually torturing Eve, I don't know Something about it didn't ring true to me, or maybe true is the wrong word. It didn't ring believable because none of it's true, but it just something about it.
Speaker 3:Just it felt like again the writers having fun, like oh what if we like have her reprise Lilith, but like as to pretend, and then Eve gets all jealous, and it didn't actually feel like the characters were driving, if that makes sense, yeah yeah, there were a couple of times in these two episodes where I was watching and I knew I was watching a tv show, if you know what I mean where, instead of it feeling like this is a story that I'm invested in, it was just like, yeah, those are actors on a soundstage, you know, and I can't remember if we talked about it so much in Lightbringers but definitely in our other podcast, deep Thoughts, about Stupid Shit.
Speaker 3:I've talked about my feeling about what writers owe to their characters and one of the things is that I hate it when writers solve their like write something that solves a writer's problem rather than that solves the character's problem. And that's what's going on here is like this is solving the writer's problem or, you know, tickling the writer, like they, they, they are having fun with it, but they're actually they're just moving the characters around like little cardboard cutouts.
Speaker 3:the characters are not doing what comes from within for these characters right, right, yeah, yeah, I think that happens a couple of times in these two episodes oh definitely yeah the other big one that, um, we talked about right after I saw the episodes, and this has bothered me this entire season is there is no way that Linda would write a book.
Speaker 2:At least not using his real name and stuff.
Speaker 3:And the real names of all of his friends. And then refer to it as possibly her most important career, something or other achievement I could maybe see her doing that for herself, but the idea of like, and then I'm gonna publish it like, no, or even like claim that it's fiction.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and try and publish it as fiction, and we've seen that, linda has somewhat dicey ethics, um yeah, but like that is so far a field of what is appropriate or realistic for a dedicated and talented therapist especially given that she named it as, like her, like a career achievement, the, those two things I I agree, those are like the thing with the self-sabotage.
Speaker 2:I my speculation is that the writers were like, oh, zombies, we have to have some demons, like in recently deceased bodies, at the wedding for ella to be like zombies are real and and that, and so they needed there to be this, like self-sabotage and this gesture, you know, like that, that was kind of the, the joke or the story beat that they were trying to get to. And then it was like this oh, and then, adam, can you know so to me that that was like. That's my speculation about the to your point about, about they were solving their own problem. The problem was how do we get to this grand gesture of some demons coming up into the bodies of the recently deceased? But well, I guess they can't get up. I was just thinking like Maze isn't in the body of a deceased person. Maze is not possessing someone, she's just there. Why couldn't I mean? It wasn't that many isn't in the body of a deceased person, maze is not possessing someone, she's just there. Why couldn't I mean?
Speaker 2:it wasn't that many Like if Lucifer was going to do it anyway, why couldn't he just lie him up? Lie him up one at a time? Yeah, and the answer is because they wanted to have the moment when Ella was like oh, and, by the way, zombies are real, so, yeah, anyway, so, yeah, anyway, okay. So let's talk about I want, I want to make sure we talk about the relationship with Rory and Ella's having pieced it together and the book, like the sort of acted out scenes from the book. Those are, those are three things that I want to make sure that we talk about before we break. What do you want to talk about first or next? Uh, let's talk about rory. Okay, let's talk about rory.
Speaker 2:So in the last episode before these two, we had that lovely moment where they connected over music and then this pair opens with them on the facade outside with the most beautiful view of Los Angeles it's available only to angels and pigeons and Rory's still kind of like snarly, but it seems like maybe she's softening. And then later we see her at the tailor where she really she really was softening. I think that was really. I actually think that was well done. So much of this season is feels rushed and, as we just said, not driven by the characters, but driven by sort of the, the desires of the writers. That felt character driven to me.
Speaker 3:Well, did you notice that what she is having altered is the same outfit.
Speaker 2:I did notice that she does not end up wearing, yeah, but the red, the red velvet tuxedo jacket. I did notice because, especially because she had scoffed at him saying that they could get magic comer buns, yeah, and then she did. Yeah, I did notice.
Speaker 2:So that actually felt sweet and believable to me and also the fact, those facts, like the fact that she was kind of coordinating and then he didn't show and that made her feel all the more betrayed and and abandoned, that all really like just gelled for me Mm. Hmm, I'm not sure it did tell for me that then the kind of Resolution of that is the her shooting him. I guess the callback was nice and it and it did serve a purpose, sort of narratively, for him to kind of realize that he, his subconscious and his conscious could be synced. But also, like I don't know it, just I felt like I was watching a show. I wasn't like in it.
Speaker 3:For that, yeah, that didn't bother me, didn't bother you, much like it. It did feel contrived, but it also was like after six seasons I can kind of like I'll accept this contrivance and it was one of those, as it happened, I okay, if you're looking for a grand gesture like you, can't get grander than that, I suppose.
Speaker 2:And I have to say, when I watched it the first time, I liked it. It's only in this rewatch that I was like I'm kind of with Chloe on this.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Well, it is. I mean it's ridiculous, but they are.
Speaker 2:They totally are. They totally are ridiculous yeah.
Speaker 3:I was a little more frustrated with Rory this time around. Like the first time watching it. I know a lot of the fans just can't stand her. Like the first time watching it, I know a lot of the fans just can't stand her. And, like you know, some of that is like you are fighting an uphill battle when you bring a new character in the sixth season. Some of it, I think, is misogyny. If she had been a son instead of a daughter, I think that people would have reacted differently. I think that people would have reacted differently. But I, I will say, like this time around I have been a little bit more frustrated. Like I definitely understand her feeling betrayed with the not him not being there the tailoring, but she had said no, I'm not going to be there. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:I think she's also supposed to be.
Speaker 2:I mean, she's older than she looks, she's older than 20, but you know longer adolescence I'm guessing for uh celeste jolts and and in her time, her mom's dying and she doesn't know how to get back to her time and like, yeah, I mean there are reasons that her sort of her mom's dying and she doesn't know how to get back to her time.
Speaker 2:I mean there are reasons that her threshold would be higher, lower, whatever the right metaphor is Lower. The thing, actually, now that we're talking about Rory and frustrating things, when she approaches Trixie and says, did you spike the punch? I'm too early, and then is surprised by Trixie saying she loves Lucifer and that he does game night, that didn't jibe for me, although I mean I suppose it's possible that Trixie is angry in the future too, because Chloe can't tell Trixie either about what's actually happened and so she has to keep both girls in the dark, and so one imagines that Txie also is angry with lucifer in rory's lifetime, and it just seemed unlikely that there would be things that would surprise her in that way, at least about trixie's affection for him. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:It they don't feel like sisters. They do not feel like sisters at all.
Speaker 3:And you know some of that is they're going to have. What a 12 year age difference.
Speaker 2:At least I was just thinking about that this morning. Trixie's, she was nine, she was.
Speaker 3:Oh, she was seven in 2016 first yeah, first season, so yeah, 12 or 13 yeah, so that's a that's a pretty huge age difference and I get that that is going to affect, like that's just a very different sibling relationship yeah but I don't know, I just no, granted.
Speaker 2:I mean like trixie's meeting this adult who she's never met before, who's her sister, but it still didn't well that I feel like that would actually would be a very difficult relationship to convey, where the adult who has idolized her older sister because she's 13, 12, 13 years older than she is her whole life, is now meeting her as a 13 year old and trixie doesn't know who Rory is. Rory knows who she is, but she's younger. But I can see where that would be very difficult to convey in a believable way and not like writing, acting, directing. All of it would be hard because it's it's not a thing that ever actually happens.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you can't really draw on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's no. There's no life experience to draw on.
Speaker 3:At the same time, back to the Future, does a great job of what it's like for the kid.
Speaker 2:True, I still think that's a slightly different. It is, it is but yeah, you're right, you're right, You're right. Okay, I'm right, okay, I'm watching the time.
Speaker 3:So you wanted to talk about the little vignettes in the second episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah, where we see them acting out the book, which really felt like the writers having fun at their own expense, frankly, and I enjoyed that thoroughly. Oh yeah, I mean I was it's the first person we talked to yeah.
Speaker 2:Imagine that and like Ella's shirt just says like cheerful t-shirt or something like that Happy t-shirt. Like there were moments that I mean I wasn't immersed in the story. It wasn't like I was transported by the story, but rather it was total fan service in a delightful and winking-at-me-I'm-in-on-the-joke kind of a way that I really, really loved. I mean all of it Maze with Cucuzzo under the desk like way to go kakuzo and um button.
Speaker 3:Dan's shriek when she throws the head at him. Well, and then the. Uh, like the fact that they refer back to what happened at the was. Was it the Mayan where the, with all the zombie demons like it, looks like they died twice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, cause we, even when we did our Lightbringers, we were like there would have been consequences, what, what you know. So we weren't the only fans who were like wait a minute now, and so they gave us. They like, yeah, they gave us like a little wink, we know. So that was really fun. That was really fun, and even like the throne room in the Silver City and Alice's hair like plastered down with grease or whatever, and the socks and sandals.
Speaker 3:And the socks and sandals and a white tuxedo.
Speaker 2:Because that's what the socks and sandals is, what Dennis Haysbert has worn. Yeah, that was really fun and it was interesting too. I actually thought this, though Linda having written it was out of character. There was something delightful about the back and forth where Lucifer is like even my own therapist doesn't think I'm going to succeed was such an interesting reminder that we're all the protagonists of our own story and, like each, like the imposter syndrome is just like like a whole ring of people thinking that they're imposters. I found that really sort of charming, honestly, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, in that second episode there are two like. So there's Ella and Dan are both having like crises. I don't know how I feel about Ella's crisis.
Speaker 2:Yeah, agreed, like why didn't you tell me like um in?
Speaker 3:it obvious hon, yeah, yeah, and like I get the like like you couldn't trust me with this and like a little bit, but except that, no, we can't trust you with this. It's not you, it's human beings yeah, the fewer people the better.
Speaker 2:Too many people already know yeah.
Speaker 3:So like it just felt odd and uh, I still like I get why they have carol. I I appreciate the intention behind the, the romance between carol and ella, and the moment at the end where she's like it's not my secret to tell and he's like, okay was lovely. I actually really liked that.
Speaker 2:Well, it was a beautiful model, but I still don't believe there's zero chemistry between those two people, like nothing, like one wonders if Amy Garcia and whatever that man's name is actually even like each other. There's so little chemistry. I mean, it really was like, and now I lean in and kiss you yeah, it was just so. Not, it wasn't even wooden. They, they both like, I think. I don't think they were bad actors. There just was no, there was no energy between them. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:He's so milquetoast yeah, and like ella deserves better than milquetoast, and I know that like the poor ella, like they put so much on her as like she ends up being the expository vehicle for everything, and like she's the audience stand in and she, like she has a lot of heavy lifting to do For one reason or another. They just let her do that. And I feel like that, like the whole story arc of like oh, I like bad boys. And like, oh, it's so tough, just doesn't it never fit?
Speaker 2:Never did it, never did, no agreed.
Speaker 3:It very much, whereas other aspects of her story I think are great, like her being so sunny and charming, but also having this, like you know, these intrusive thoughts, this darkness that she doesn't know how to deal with, and feeling like she's like bifurcated because she has, like she is, both sunshiny and also dark, and not knowing what, that felt realistic and real to me, but the romantic life doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Speaker 3:I mean, well and like the thing is, even the Pete storyline made sense, because it made sense that he was attractive to her.
Speaker 2:Pete made sense as a partner before we knew he was a serial killer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and then even the serial killer reveal, and part of it was how good that actor was. That also made sense. And then the fact that it's like it's center spiraling because of her, what she thinks of as her darkness, like all of that Great yeah. And so like I get the writers wanting to kind of like give her a happy ending, but she, I don't feel like she'd end up with a Carol.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think she'd end up with a white dude, unless he was like big, like geeky guy into into some of the shit that she likes. Otherwise he would be Latino or black or like I. Just I don't know.
Speaker 3:Well, and I just I think I see her with someone who's a little morally ambiguous, you know, like not a bad person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and the former addict. The former addict is not enough. Well, he is a former addict, he's a former alcoholic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes, he has. He is a former addict.
Speaker 2:It's just there's, that's, but there was very little about that storyline. Like we we actually didn't get anything about that, we were just told we weren't shown his moral ambiguity. We've never actually seen him behave in morally ambiguous ways, we only know that that happened in backstory. And even in backstory it's just sort of like yeah, he was undercover for a year and he was addicted and then he went into rehab. That's the extent of the story. Yeah, yeah, well, and I was thinking like there's went to rehab.
Speaker 3:That's the extent of the story. Yeah, yeah, well. And I was thinking like there's a point where she he startles her and she throws her champagne on him. Yeah, and like, depending on where he is in his recovery, that could be really difficult for him. And there's no like oh, I got it all cleaned up, no problem.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean, I mean again, like for our writers, they just needed him out of the room while the whole, and you and you're, and I know that you, yeah, he couldn't be there for that, so he was cleaning up his shirt. Yeah, oh, ella, yeah.
Speaker 3:Amy Garcia, you deserve better and Ella, you deserve better. So the other crisis that I want to talk about is Dan. Watching this through the first time, the entire time I was like, clearly, this is about Trixie, you know. Like, dude, it's about your daughter. And I mean maybe that's obvious to me because I am a parent and the idea of leaving my kids at this age it like would torture me. But even like at the wedding, he's like it's awful, I, I can see my daughter, but I can't interact with her. I'm like, yeah, it's torture, isn't it, you know?
Speaker 2:like well, he even says that at one point. He says in a previous episode, he says take me back to hell. I can't, I can't do this. When, when lucifer tells him that once you reach the mortal plane, you became uh, whatever and immaterial.
Speaker 3:The idea that this is a big mystery to him, yeah, for thousands of years. Okay, maybe it's a big mystery to him, maybe he's not very self-aware, but it's a mystery to Maze, whose job it is, yeah, and who is close with Trixie.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I feel like that's one of those, like we just have to suspend our disbelief that people don't recognize Superman when he puts the glasses on.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I just I, I found that just kind of frustrating in part because Dan is portrayed as a good father.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So part of that would have to be some emotional intelligence about parenthood and and his relationship with his daughter.
Speaker 2:Or even if it's not, the emotional intelligence is that you know, like like in dead boy detectives, like the truly bad guys. Don't worry if they're bad guys. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3:Uh, I mean we'll get there where we find out that you know it's. He is afraid that he was a bad father.
Speaker 2:No, I I know, but I think that he would be. That would be the he would be aware of that. That would be that's what I mean.
Speaker 3:That would be like oh God, I left my daughter and I was a bad father and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's what I feel guilty about. I think he would know yeah. Yeah, I think he would know yeah.
Speaker 3:So and like, okay, maybe he's just it's too painful so he doesn't look at it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean that is that actually makes sense. You know the way that Lee didn't want to go in the room in the door, but Lucifer would know.
Speaker 2:Yes, Maze would know. Yeah, yeah, because we are very predictable human beings. We think that we're so unique. No one in the world has ever felt like we do, but it's just not true. It's just not true. And Maze and Lucifer would know. They know. They know humans. Yeah, yeah, they don't know themselves, but they know humans, yeah, all right, was there a third thing that I said that I wanted to talk about? Linda's book and the relationship with Rory and Ella. Figuring it out, maybe?
Speaker 3:Oh, ella figuring it out, yeah. Yeah yeah, I feel like she was best placed to be able to figure it out, in that she's super smart, has an up-close personal view of all of it and is a person of faith, and so is more inclined to believe that this stuff is real.
Speaker 2:Anyway, yeah, I think that I mean, we've talked about it a little bit already, both today and in previous episodes like even some of the ways that, like in the last episode, or maybe it was two episodes ago, where she talks to a meta deal and she's trying to hint that she knows and he like acts like he doesn't know what she's talking about, and I don't think that it would have gotten past him. And then we said, but she led with her sock as, like the reason that she knew that the world was ending, and today we talked about the fact that, like there were things that just her actual crisis like just didn't make total sense. And also and also I want to qualify that like the specific moments that she called out like I held an angel feather in my hand and you let me believe it was an emu feather, and also Ray Ray is the angel of death. Like those two moments called out, specifically, those I believed those didn't frustrate me as like like the way that you described I hear what you said that when she's like you couldn't trust me, like yeah, of course we couldn't trust anybody, don't take it personally. Yeah, like Chloe shouldn't even know.
Speaker 2:But those two things, that those two things specifically. She was like what, the actual, like how, what, and like a feeling of betrayal at having had this, those things kept from her. Those two things. I was like yeah, that's not cool. Especially ray ray, oh gosh, yeah. So I just like those things I I kind of wanted to name I think I don't know I'm not sure what purpose it served narratively to have her get wasted, like I guess she needed the courage to actually sort of confront them all publicly at once. But I why? I mean, she's, we've seen her be very brave and she was already kind of working toward it with a mena deal, like I'm not unless she was frightened, I don't know. There was something about like that, that her getting just totally wasted. That again I was kind of like what, why, what, why?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, especially since she's dating a recovering alcoholic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's true, and he's there with her, although I will say we have seen her. When, having a crisis, she kind of turns to substances.
Speaker 2:True, that is true. We have seen that before. Yeah, though the one I'm thinking of with the bomb, like her, life was in danger, although I guess she thinks the whole world is in danger. Yeah, okay, all right, thanks for reminding me of that so I mean not completely out of character yeah, okay. Well, I guess those were the things that I wanted to make sure that I said did you? Did you articulate what you wanted to make sure you wanted to share with our listeners?
Speaker 3:uh, yeah, yeah, I think. So. You've said before that this season feels rushed, and I agree. You've said before that this season feels rushed, and I agree, and I was trying to think of what Linda could have that wasn't a book, because I was like you know, if she was like you know what?
Speaker 2:I've got all of my notes from the past five years that could have had the same effect, but it wouldn't have given her, like, an opportunity for her to have a crisis. I honestly, would have been okay with it as a book If she had said I'm like writing a novel based on you it's called sympathy for the devil and you know, like it's about the fictional therapist to the devil and like, even like, gave them different names chloe is zoe and yeah, you know, like dan stan, yeah, something like that. Like that, actually, I think could have worked. It would have not made me think less of linda barton, yes, and it would have. There could have been additional funny jokes in the telling right, like to have Kevin Alejandro come out and then I'll be like Stan. I think that could have been really fun, and so I think they could have even kept it as a book, but allowed her to keep her integrity yeah, which I feel like they stole from her in this, which is unfortunate. Yeah, which is unfortunate. So, all right, fluff.
Speaker 3:I have two. The first is that when Lucifer goes to get Linda and-.
Speaker 2:The bra and the sommelier yeah, Excellent taste in men. It's like Linda, I love you.
Speaker 3:Although I did find myself wondering, like who's looking after Charlie? Oh my gosh, where is Charlie? Yeah, must have had an overnight babysitter. Maybe Adriana was looking after Charlie so that she could, you know, really enjoy herself at the wedding. I hope so. So that's, that was my first piece of fluff. The second one did you notice who the director was for the second episode?
Speaker 2:No, I didn't. Who was it?
Speaker 3:DB, woodside, oh cool. Woodside, oh cool. And which I think is part of the reason why he was absent for most of the episode. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he gave himself the coolest flying away moment when he jumps and twists in the air, the twists. I remember that, like from the first watch through I was being like oh, that is freaking cool. And, uh, ella's response to seeing the wing. That's what it should look like. Yeah, that's what it's supposed to look like.
Speaker 3:I remembered seeing that and it's before. I think that's part of the cold open, and so it was immediately after that as I'm watching, and I was directed by DB Woodside. I was just like you go, make yourself look cool, db, I am down for that. Make yourself look cool.
Speaker 2:DB. I am down for that. That is so funny, that's great. So so those are my, my, my two pieces of fluff. That's really great. Yeah, well, I, I also was wondering where the heck Charlie was, and and I and I also took note of the Somalia at Linda's place. So those, so we noticed similar things on that score.
Speaker 2:The other thing that I kind of noted that I think is both a shortcut and also fan service, is the montage from previous where Chloe's remembering all the times that he abandoned her or that. You know things, things got got intense emotionally and then he left. And then we see it again when rory's reading it, and then we see the montage of all the sweet moments between them and all the kind of the moments of true connection between them, which, um, like, on the one hand it's a total shortcut because we're just editing together shit that's already happened, and on the other, in this final season of this beloved show, it like feels like a warm hug. So it was a both and for me on those two montages. So it was a both and for me on those two montages Also, fluffy, fluffy, fluffy did this, like the changes in Lauren German's looks.
Speaker 2:I mean Ellis too, ellis too, clearly aged over the five years I mean, but I don't know, I don't Germans looks as her character really softened from that season one where she was all angles and severe, to this final where she was much more sort of soft and flowy, which I thought was was really I hadn't noticed until they put it together in that montage, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, so that was something that I noted.
Speaker 3:It's funny, like this isn't exactly a clip show, but uh, you know, I remember in the 80s every season of like long-running shows would have maybe not every season, but every long running show would have a clips episode. And like they, they would, uh, the one that I remember being the most like as a kid, going like they're really reaching here and like, did the writers need a week off? Where the story, like the frame story for that it was Star Trek, the next generation Riker gets bitten by something that causes him to relive memories, and so, and I, I just remember being like, uh-uh, like, I'll take the clip show. I'm, I'm a fan, I like these, it's like the best stuff. William reicher, I'm down with it, but seriously. And so, like I find it interesting, uh, like you don't see them as often anymore because you don't have the 24 episode seasons anymore, where, like that's just brutal on the writer, writers and the actors and the rest of the, the staff well, also the way that so much is dropped all at once.
Speaker 1:It like it's harder.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's harder for the fans as well, Like when you're watching 24 episodes over 24 weeks, you know, and you can't go back and rewatch your favorites whenever you want to.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, but I also. What gets me about this? This one it's not exactly a clip episode, but it is like very much the um, like in the spirit of that, and I feel like they also watch the community clips episode, where it was flashbacks to things that we'd never actually seen um, because they kind of do that too. So like we've got these scenes that are not canon, that.
Speaker 1:So like, like what the?
Speaker 3:the scene between maze and dan in the car, where they actually did have a conversation, but we're, oh, canon version of it, got it, yeah. And then the scene in the precinct where Lucifer has that giant desk and Cacusa is going down on Mays. So they're kind of like taking a page out of community with that as well. Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:You know, I think those aspects are part of why I say if Linda had said that it was fiction, it would have been more, given her more integrity, because it was already sort of there, it was already sort of fictionalized. Absolutely yeah, interesting yeah.
Speaker 3:So one other piece of fluff. I mentioned this to you right after I watched them. I was like Tom Ellis wearing a tuxedo shirt and suspenders for an entire episode is something I can get behind. I mean, talk about big nose and broad shoulders. It's just like just stay on the screen. Just yeah, just there.
Speaker 2:Oh man, it's just gorgeous. Too funny, too funny. Alright, well, we're almost done, so I will see you next time for the final two episodes.
Speaker 1:See you next time our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin Mccleod from incompetechcom, licensed under creative commons by attribution 4.0 license. Visit the show notes for the url. I am an artificially generated voice powered by narrakeepcom. Luc Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix. Tracy and Emily are not affiliated with Fox, netflix nor WB. If you liked this episode, subscribe to keep overthinking with them and visit the show notes for other ways to connect.