In the final episode of Lightbringers, the Guy girls still manage some significant overthinking. The storytelling leads them to some questions about how people who don’t feel remorse might be tortured in the Lucifer universe (in other words, what was the magic behind Lucifer’s whispered words to Lemec?). Additionally, the confines of telling a story with actors on a small screen lead to musings about the role our age plays in our identity (and a detour into Star Trek the Next Generation and the Matrix).
We enjoy the acting of Rob Benedict as he portrays Vincent Le Mec and then Dan Espinoza inhabiting Vincent Le Mec’s body. We also have some deep appreciation for the visual storytelling used to portray the silver city and the tight writing that gave us the series of events leading to the appearance of Mr. Meowgi the lion and Le Mec’s escape from prison.
At the same time, we both were a bit less than satisfied with the writing that would characterize (or at least not significantly distinguish) righteous anger as monstrous, allowed saviorism to flavor the attempt at anti-racism in Chloe’s role as Lieutenant, and left us with the impression Trixie wasn’t present for her.
We wrap up the journey with a few thoughts about recommendations for binge-worthy shows that might scratch the Lucifer itch.
Mentioned in this episode:
Our Lucifer episode of Deep Thoughts about Stupid Sh*t
Good Omens streams on Amazon
Dead Boy Detectives is on Netflix
The Sandman is on Netflix
Dead End: Paranormal Park is on Netflix
Owl House is on Disney+
Miranda is on Britbox or Amazon
The Good Place is on Netflix
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
In the final episode of Lightbringers, the Guy girls still manage some significant overthinking. The storytelling leads them to some questions about how people who don’t feel remorse might be tortured in the Lucifer universe (in other words, what was the magic behind Lucifer’s whispered words to Lemec?). Additionally, the confines of telling a story with actors on a small screen lead to musings about the role our age plays in our identity (and a detour into Star Trek the Next Generation and the Matrix).
We enjoy the acting of Rob Benedict as he portrays Vincent Le Mec and then Dan Espinoza inhabiting Vincent Le Mec’s body. We also have some deep appreciation for the visual storytelling used to portray the silver city and the tight writing that gave us the series of events leading to the appearance of Mr. Meowgi the lion and Le Mec’s escape from prison.
At the same time, we both were a bit less than satisfied with the writing that would characterize (or at least not significantly distinguish) righteous anger as monstrous, allowed saviorism to flavor the attempt at anti-racism in Chloe’s role as Lieutenant, and left us with the impression Trixie wasn’t present for her.
We wrap up the journey with a few thoughts about recommendations for binge-worthy shows that might scratch the Lucifer itch.
Mentioned in this episode:
Our Lucifer episode of Deep Thoughts about Stupid Sh*t
Good Omens streams on Amazon
Dead Boy Detectives is on Netflix
The Sandman is on Netflix
Dead End: Paranormal Park is on Netflix
Owl House is on Disney+
Miranda is on Britbox or Amazon
The Good Place is on Netflix
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah, the plot which they overthink.
Speaker 2:I'm here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker. She does use a hyphen.
Speaker 3:And I'm here with my sister, Emily Guy-Burken. She does not use a hyphen.
Speaker 2:And together we are Lightbringers where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show. And yes, we're overthinking it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's what we do. We're overthinkers. Yep, it's here. It's the. The last episode of light bringers, 609 and 610. Goodbye, lucifer and partners. Till the end, that's right. I mean, at this stage in the storytelling, like we don't have procedural anymore, there's no more case of the week, it's just all about the. It's the soap opera, the drama, the drama of the daughter from the future.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's not a whole lot of humor in these either. I mean, there is there's a little bit, but it's. It's not like previous episodes and seasons.
Speaker 3:Nope, nope.
Speaker 2:So where should we start? Hmm, so where should we start? I would like to talk about what I have seen the fandom, I think, misinterpret about this finale. So when I go on Reddit or any other places where Lucy fans congregate, they say that they hate the ending because it undercuts everything they're saying about free will, Because Lucifer does not see his daughter grow up because she asked him not to. And I feel like that is really misinterpreting what's happening here in a way that bothers me, because I understand being dissatisfied with the ending because it's not a super mega happy ending but at the same time, like that does not undercut Lucifer's free will. He makes the choice to give his word and he makes the choice to keep his word every single day for the next I don't know 40 years, how old we don't know how old Rory is.
Speaker 3:Somewhere between 40 and 50 years, I expect yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that to me is is more of a, an indication of the the importance of choice and the um the responsibility of free will, because it's not just you make a decision and then you go. It's like you have to keep remaking that decision over and over and over again. There had to have been times when he was tempted to go up, and I've seen some fan theories that say and I kind of like to think that that every once in a while he would go up and just take a look, you know wouldn't interact, but just take a look, um or even like I mean one can imagine that he could interact with chloe as long as rory didn't see him.
Speaker 3:Yes to that point like why did he need to leave right that second? Like he could have stayed through the pregnancy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, um, I wonder if it's it's like the end of season four, where it's like I have to leave now or I'm never going to. Yeah, so and then. And to that point he might not have been able to once he held the baby yeah, so when his daughter, who he has connected with, is fresh in his mind, he can fulfill her request. But after it's been several months, yeah, nine, nine, ten months yeah, yeah, yeah yeah that that jibes, yeah, and so I.
Speaker 2:I just like, I think that it's. We have a time loop story and I'm currently working on a story involving time travel, so like, I've spent time thinking about time loops and things like that and it's, it's a really interesting thought exercise for a writer to think about time loops. It's really interesting to think about. You know how, how they come to be. But I feel like the story at the end rejects the idea that the time loop means things are faded, even though it says like it has to happen, so that you know to do this. But it's not, it's not fate, it's not because he was taken out of her life, it's because he chose not to be in her life. So like, yes, there is an element of like this has already happened and has to happen, but he chooses every day. Well, and so does she.
Speaker 3:I mean the fact that rory chose it, I think, also kind of speaks to that it's not fate that he chooses it, because she asks him to promise that that he will, because she sees the importance of what happened between them and what his, the potential that he has for changing the cosmology.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so many souls, yeah, and that, to me, is like she is in some ways, making a selfish choice, because she's like I don't want to change a thing, because, like, I got to where I am now and I like where I am now, and she's asking her mother and father to give up something that they both badly want and they haven't given up yet. Like she's never known it, but yes.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:Um, but at the same time like it's an unselfish choice because she knows the angst she went through for however many years, the anger and the unhappiness, but that is but it's for the greater good, literally, because Lucifer is in a unique position to help people overcome the things that help them back in life. So I find that, like I was not unsatisfied with the ending. Now, part of that is because I am very practical when it comes to stories about non-human characters. So if there's someone who's immortal, who is paired with someone who is not I just don't know how it's you can't have a happy ever after with them.
Speaker 3:Yeah, actually, the one that they got, where she shows up dead and chooses to be with him, is the closest thing to happily ever after that they could have if they had gotten married, then he would continue to look, you know 45 yeah, and she would grow old and like and that it they, they actually did a really nice job of this.
Speaker 2:um, I don't remember how I got to talking about it, but I I was telling my, my sons about the movie Highlander, um and the. There's the Highlander who's immortal and like there can be only one. The only way they can kill each other is cut, cut their heads off. Um, but he marries a woman and he stays the same and she just grows older and older and older and then he, he has to mourn her after she dies and like it's tragic, you know, you get happily for now and that actually that's the other thing I really appreciated with Rory. What she said was like, considering the length of our lives, it's a blip. We have eternity. This is a blip. She's right now. It's a really tough blip to miss but, they have forever, basically so.
Speaker 2:So I feel like the the writers were trying to give us the happiest possible. Ending and thinking through the consequences yeah, agreed, and the, I think, the fandom. Just they wanted super mega happy ending yeah and and all the trappings.
Speaker 3:Like I know a lot of the fans are like annoyed there was no wedding, but like a wedding kind of doesn't make sense.
Speaker 2:And we got the wedding between Maze and Eve. You know like, yeah, I agree, I agree. The other thing that I on this watch through that I found really interesting is that Lucifer's and Rory's actions are what directly caused this, because since Lucifer did not take on the mantle of God, his siblings are answering prayers, including Mr Meowgi Meowgi, that's right the lion, which is what led to Lamech being able to escape. And because Rory brought Dan up from hell, he was able to inhabit Lamech's body so that Lamech would know about Rory. Rory and Lucifer's disappearance at that intersection and all of that. So like there is like that time loop kind of aspect of it, but it's not time loop exactly, it's just it's like these are the reasonable consequences of their actions. And I will say I felt like I had completely forgotten about the lion, like no memory of that whatsoever so I'm watching this this time and I'm like what is happening his cat is mr meowgie the lion.
Speaker 2:Yeah and it was one of the broy angels was answering that prayer and I actually I really liked that because it was, it was tight writing, like the consequences, like falling one after the other on each other, totally made sense, like all of that. And unlike you know recent episode, we were talking about Linda writing the book Like that did not fit, that did not make sense. Talking about Linda writing the book like that did not fit, that did not make sense. That was like like it was a square peg in a round hole because they wanted to do a clip show and they wanted to make certain jokes. But this was like oh yeah, this is like really good plotting, yeah, and reasonably funny too in some ways.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, speaking of reasonably funny too, in some ways, yeah yeah, speaking of reasonably funny, when Dan inhabits Lamech's body. That actor did a great job. Oh gosh, yeah, like I really believed that he was a different person. Yeah, yeah, he did a really, really nice job.
Speaker 2:I don't know Like he managed to recreate Kevin Alejandro's like body language and mannerisms, yeah, so well done that actor he also. He really sold the anguish that he was in, yeah, and it made me feel like I could see him being someone worthy of time in Lucifer's therapy, like Reese is definitely worthy of time in Lucifer's therapy. The third person there don't know who that one is, we didn't know and that's fine, unless, was she?
Speaker 3:We didn't, as I was watching, I didn't, but is she one of the members of Dos Exes? Oh, do you remember?
Speaker 2:the yeah, I don't. I didn't recognize her.
Speaker 3:Me neither Not. While I was watching, I just was trying to think of a female. Who it could have been yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:But the because I, while I was watching this and seeing how awful Lamech was being before he revealed what torture he was experiencing, because he was experiencing guilt for the first time in his life I found myself thinking like I'd almost rather see Malcolm on that couch at the end.
Speaker 3:We've talked about that In our Lightbringers conversation. When we watched the malcolm episodes, we noted that he isn't on the couch because he doesn't seem to have any remorse whatsoever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I I was thinking that in part just because I really liked that actor, like yeah, did he choose scenery like a mofo? Like yeah, he's like, but but it was also just like you know that we might have been able to see another side of him, and because I had forgotten how it went down with Lamech and seeing that I remember him saying I want to see the light when he died, but I didn't remember any of the conversation from before that, and so it's it was. It was impressive that it brought me around again, like cause I, I think I was fine with it the first time I watched it and then, this time around, I was just like I don't know, this guy's really piece of crap. And then it brought me around again and I was like, all right, yeah, I, I mean like, and this is going to be because time works differently and it's 40 or 50 years later, so he is still struggling with it but it's 40, 40 or 50 years here, so thousands of years down there thousands of years later.
Speaker 2:So and so he's.
Speaker 3:He's still struggling with it, but he's trying one wonders, though, like the fact that we never learn what it is that lucifer said, and so I am left. What he said in lamexia, or the whisper, I am left with the thought that it was. It was somehow like magical I'm putting quotes around that word like something kind of supernatural. It wasn't just the words that he said, but there was some sort of you know, supernatural magic about the words that he said that made him feel guilt for the first time, so like flip the switch in the sociopath's brain that gave him the empathy that he didn't have, which, if that's a possibility, it also changes, like our head canon about the locked doors right, like if, if there is a mechanism by which, through a word, whispered, yeah, yeah lucifer is able to unlock the guilt and the empathy and then work on it well then, now in the current time, like in the post season six timeline, they can work on it, and prior to that they could be tortured with it, right like because part of
Speaker 3:our headcanon about hell is like and the born of the reddit conversations about like, what about people like pete or like you know, sociopaths and psychopath and psychopaths who and I don't know the difference, sorry folks, but who who are incapable of feeling empathy and guilt, like what keeps them in hell? That was that's sort of the Redditor question and your answer has always been which works for me, has worked for me, that we do see some doors that are locked and the ones that are locked are those. But this is this story arc with lamech is making me question whether or not, in fact, the, the locks, are necessary even for those folks, and maybe the locks, locked doors, are like for the goddess and other celestials who might be being tortured. This is a overthinking moment.
Speaker 3:You know because because of the storyline, because of the effects on Lamech, based on something whispered in his ear by Lucifer, which, I'm sorry, I don't think there's an English phrase that would do that without some sort of otherworldly power behind it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the theory that I've seen is that what was said was he was my friend, which I don't.
Speaker 3:I still think it needed a little oomph. I mean, yeah, I just don't think that even the devil saying he was my friend would be sufficient to engender the kind of anguish that is described by the character.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 3:I agree, but it's just, it's odd to add that kind of magic in the sixth season, although they added time travel in the sixth season, although they added time travel, and I mean, I feel like every season gets a new piece of magic. You know true, like, uh, lilith's ring was a new piece of magic and, like you know, I mean I feel like the goddess as like we only heard about god until like the end of second, the first season, and then into the second season.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, okay, I'll give you that, but then they never, never say anything about it, so like we're just left to wonder yeah, which is probably better because, yeah, we'd be unsatisfied with any kind of explanation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or someone would.
Speaker 2:Someone would be unsatisfied even if, even if the guy girls were satisfied yeah, yeah, I feel for joe and ildy about these two episodes because I know the the fandom is unsatisfied and I feel like they were trying to do as much fan service as possible they gave us a lot of really soft and fluffy, yeah, embracing and smooching and honestly like it was less so this time around.
Speaker 2:The first time I watched it like, apparently I like angsty love stories. I don't like fluffy ones, because I was sitting there like squirming with embarrassment as they're just clutching each other in the panic room went on a.
Speaker 3:It was like three beats too long for me.
Speaker 2:Well, it also that version of Unchained Melody. It's just like take it down a notch. Yeah, I feel it. It's a heavy moment for them because they think he's going to disappear. But come on, can somebody fart or something please? So, which is like it's so funny, because I'm such a romantic, like I have been a romantic my entire life, and yet if you give me what I actually want, I'm like no, no, that's too much.
Speaker 3:It was too easy. Yeah, make them work for it.
Speaker 2:Six years, it was too easy. Make them work for it Six years, it was too easy. I apparently really like the angsty pining kind of love story and I do want to see them get together. But I actually I even remember as a kid I would read series that would set up a romance between the characters in the first book and then I would be like, yeah, they're kind of boring by the time they get together, which I don't know what that says about me, like moonlighting right, like you can't let them actually get together.
Speaker 3:It ruins the show.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's just like well, now they're going to be married and boring and I'm like, where's the flirting, where's the? I'm not sure if they like me. So, yeah, that fan fan service did not work for me, but I appreciated that they did it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we're going a little off script here from our usual structure, but I'm just gonna go with it.
Speaker 2:It's our last episode and all of you listening. Thank you for joining us on this weird journey.
Speaker 3:So this time around something in the very last episode that really bothered me, that I totally get why they made the choice and I probably would have made the same if I were a showrunner. Which hey universe, I would love to be a showrunner. Oh, you could work with neil gaiman on something that would be awesome.
Speaker 2:My god, which hey universe. I would love to be a showrunner. Oh, you could work with Neil Gaiman on something that would be awesome, my God.
Speaker 3:He says he's going to stop. He says he's going to retire from TV and just go back to writing, writing books, yeah, I understand, anyway, after Chloe dies, the manifestation of her that lives on in the afterlife is the 40 year old chloe from now, which I totally get why the show would do that.
Speaker 2:of course they did same reason why they changed to kevin alejandro when he was um, when he was um, when he was in Lamex body Right.
Speaker 3:So we see him in Trixie talking, yes, yes, but that one even like like that was like for ease of understanding what was happening.
Speaker 2:It was also I felt like for Kevin Alejandro to have that. You know like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:No, and it it that that worked for me. That didn't bother me this time around. Watching it kind of bothered me that Chloe would. When I just think about, like now I'm 48 and like maybe my 40 year old body was in better shape or like looked better or whatever, but like I wouldn't give up the kind of experience. That is where I am now If I you know, like I don't know, there was something that just felt incomplete and I don't know what the word is. Like I want to say unrealistic.
Speaker 3:But come on, trace, none of this is is realistic you're asking for realism in the crime solving devil exactly, exactly, but you know what it reminds me of for a beat cop becomes god but it, but it reminds me of there was like there was like a star trek, the next generation episode that I haven't seen in probably 25 years, maybe longer, where, like Picard, like somehow like eats a mushroom or something and ends up like living this whole life or like I don't know it was an alien thing, and he lives like a whole life, like 50 years, on this planet, and he has kids and his grandkids and like I deeply remember him, like asking a grandkid if they were wearing sunblock, and then, like back on the Enterprise, they like save him I'm putting quotes around save they, save him from whatever it is that's got him in this fantasy world. And like bring him back to the moment that he was taken. But meanwhile in his mind he's lived this 40 years and is expected to just like drop right back in and I like obviously this has stayed with me, but I remember thinking like what? Like it would be as if I woke up now and I was 20. I can't even remember my friends' names from when I was 20, not all of them.
Speaker 3:You know, like what you know and and so it's not even like, like I'm not sure I would make that choice from eight years ago and she's meant to be making it from like 40 years ago and now I know it's it's just her like vessel. But you know, by choosing that vessel like it sort of like diminishes the beauty of the aged one because if it didn't have aches and pains, like she earned those wrinkles I, I don't know I'm I'm clearly overthinking it, but it really kind of stuck with me and obviously it's a TV show and it would have been very unsatisfying to see that older actress who I've never seen before, go to Lucifer. Like I don't want that, obviously I don't want that.
Speaker 2:And also my intellectual brain is going like Honestly, I don't want that, and also my intellectual brain is going like, wait a minute here I was thinking of it more as, like in the Matrix, they talk about what you look like. Is what you think you look like, yeah, yeah. And so I was thinking of it like that, in that it's not that I look that different, but well, I'm thinking of more in other people. Like after our grandmother died and we were going through old photographs, my favorites were the one where she was. She looked like how I knew her, but younger. So when she had the short hair that she you know, that was not Brown, um, and you know but was clearly like had more energy and all of that. Those are my favorites because, like that was how I thought of her. But she looked young and vibrant, but still herself that I think of her.
Speaker 2:So, and, and so I I was thinking of it more like that, where it's, it's not that she's renouncing the age, it's more just like that's how she still thinks she looks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this is something that I know, people have really been frustrated by that scene between rory and elderly chloe, that it's just the two of them and I I am sympathetic to those complaints because we have two, one of whom we've never seen before and one of whom is new to the season, finishing out a story that has beloved actors who are not there, were talking about how, like they had tried to like cast someone to play Charlie and cast someone to play adult Trixie and stuff like that, and there and it was all these strangers and I was like they made the right decision. But at the same time, there's also, like you know, we got these two strangers finishing a story that we have beloved actors for, so like I, I, I, I, considering the story they told, told that was the only choice they had, I think I do wish they had said something about like where's trixie?
Speaker 2:if, if they'd said trixie's on her way, yeah, trixie's on her way from home, mom, yeah yeah something, yeah something. Um, or trixie's in the next room, you know like, or I let her take a nap while I sit with you, mom, you know.
Speaker 3:Something to indicate where Trixie was. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because that, yeah, yeah. I feel bad for Brianna Hillenbrand, the actress who played, or Hildebrand, hilda something, hilda something, hilda something. I feel bad for her coming into this show in the final season and playing the part that she did, because she's hated in the fandom Rory is hated, which is really not fair, and I feel like that actress did a phenomenal job.
Speaker 3:I think she did a good job.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it was just going to be hard for us to care. It was a heavy lift.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, emotionally, yeah, yeah. So, speaking about emotional, let's talk about all the goodbyes. Yeah, it was the first goodbyes, mm-hmm, yeah, lucifer's goodbyes. So there was ella with the pencil, which was pretty cute, yeah, and actually I noted this may be his fluff, but the hug afterward, like she like capped, she like traps his arms at first and then he has to like extract his arms so he can hug her back, which was kind of sweet, but I, I, I appreciate it, I like that and the way that, like they had to spell out for us what stem stands for again it's like we know what it means apparently not everybody does, because I I was having a conversation with someone recently and I said that something was STEM focused and they didn't know what that meant, so maybe they made the right choice to spell it out for us.
Speaker 3:And then Google exists and it's free. The goodbye with maze was pretty remarkable. That was amazing. Talk about a redemption arc yeah, right that they acknowledge. You know, when he says that he wish he had acknowledged, you know that he wish he had acted like it, like she was his best friend before you know, and the fact that she doesn't work for him anymore and she's her own demon. I don't know. There was something about that exchange that was like really poignant, well written, well acted. I really really liked it.
Speaker 3:I thought that was great yeah yeah, and the fact that maize gets it too. She understands the subtext in ways that, like ella, didn't which was also really nice and like I'm not sure, and amenadiel doesn't either yeah it.
Speaker 2:I thought that was interesting, that it like it felt like each of those goodbyes they did a good job in the writing of symbolizing the relationships.
Speaker 2:So, like everything is very straightforward with Linda and he makes sure to be straightforward with Linda because that's who she is. She helps him, like, understand what's going on in his head. And then with Mays, she gets the subtext in part because she's known him for millennia and knows like when he's acting like this it's because something's wrong. But you know he is making it clear like this is, this is a relationship that has not been good for you and I'm not going to let myself do that to you anymore. With Ella, it's it's. Ella doesn't get the subtext because she's she's still very new to the fact that he's more than just a wealthy businessman who's eccentric, and she's also like so sunny that you know wouldn't occur to her that this is like if he doesn't actually say it, it wouldn't occur to her that this is like you know, like I'm not going to see you again. And then with Amenadiel, like they're always talking past each other.
Speaker 3:Around each other.
Speaker 2:Yeah, even when it's good things, and in the past Lucifer has gotten angry at Amenadiel for that, but this time around he just lets it happen, because they both are worried about things that are more important.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It was nice, yeah, so I do want to talk about another. Goodbye, dan. Talking to trixie yeah as we said in a previous episode, it's disappointing that they wrote it in such a way that, like Dan had no idea that he needed to talk to Trixie and like, okay, maybe he didn't, but like Lucifer and Maze would have gotten it and you know, like and I could see it being written as like Lucifer and Maze, like no, you, seriously, it's something about your daughter and Dan refusing to believe it.
Speaker 2:Like I could see that where I'm just like I can't do it. No, I refuse to believe it, I can't subject her to me, you know? Like something like that I could see. But instead they made it like everybody suddenly struck stupid. Yeah, so, but the conversation they have.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I, I was telling you before we started to hit record um, first day of summer break, my kids are home. One of them is building a 70 million piece Lego and, uh, he wanted to show me how far he'd gotten. So he came in to get me to show me how far he'd gotten. In the middle of that scene and I'm like, and he's like, are you sick, mom? You, okay, I'm like, it's okay, I'm just watching. Something's making me cry. He's like okay, but the fierceness with which pixie defends Dan to himself, you'd take that back.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and which couldn't have happened if he'd been himself Right Like I, I imagine. If he had looked like himself, if she had known she was talking to her father, oh, it would have been totally different.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So like there's something just lovely about that. Um, I don't believe in woo stuff. I really don't.
Speaker 2:I want to because it's fun, but it makes me feel like there are times when I have interactions with people or conversation with someone that makes me feel like I've talked to dad or something and you know, like it's stuff that would not be able to be part of our conversation if dad were actually here.
Speaker 2:But I'm able to say it because you know it's Vincent Lamech and so, like I don't really believe that that's what's happening, but it's nice to think that, like energy wise, like cause, I do do think that there's, like you know, putting out into the world this I, you know, an idea of like I'm so glad that dad gave us the film education he did. You know, things like that where, um, I think I told you after I saw nope in the theater, a jordan peele movie person I most wanted to talk about it with was dad, like I just like, oh my god, he would have. I think he would have hated it, but he would have had really strong opinions about why he hated. I mean to be clear, he wouldn't have hated it because it's a bad movie. He would have hated it, because children in danger, yeah, children in children in danger would have bothered him, but the actual storytelling he would have enjoyed that.
Speaker 2:He would have eaten it up with a spoon. And I ended up writing a fan letter to Jordan Peele telling him, like you know, you gave me my dad back for an afternoon, back for an afternoon, because I kept thinking, like I could hear it in his voice, what he, what he would say and, like um, what his opinion would be on on the character of Jupe um, who had been a child actor.
Speaker 2:um, and you, know, all of these things and so, like that interaction that um Trixie has with Lamech but her dad, it kind of reminded me of that there are moments when someone we've lost comes back to us in a way that's unexpected and not necessarily like I definitely don't believe. You know.
Speaker 3:That ghost isn't having that person. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but it's. It is a similar kind of um return in a way that's nice, that's very nice, it's very nice.
Speaker 3:So the last thing that I it doesn't have to be the last thing we talk about, but the last thing that I want to like make sure that I lift up is, um, a line that lucifer says terese, which is that if I can do it, if the devil can be redeemed, then anyone can, which, in my mind, is actually like the kind of moral of the story, it's the of the whole yeah series. Right, I think that was, and that's what made it not what the whatever like christian moms group thought that it was right. It was actually. That's what made it not the sort of um satanic corrupting influence was that the fundamental kernel that they were trying to convey was a redemption arc for the devil, and so the fact that they actually said it out loud in so many words is both like validating and satisfying and also like feels like cheating somehow.
Speaker 2:So when I got my, uh, my master's degree, um, I had to take. There were some, uh, undergraduate prerequisites that I had to take. One of them was a Shakespeare course, cause I just happened to not take any Shakespeare courses when I when I was an undergrad, and so the only one that I can fit in my schedule was through a community college locally. It was an online class and the requirements for writing papers was that you had to underline the thesis, and I got points taken off my first paper because I didn't, because I was just like come on, and so I'm saying this because they're underlining the thesis yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it feels like cheating a little bit yeah, yeah and but at the I it may have earned it. I don't know. I don't know. I do really like that final scene. I love that we see Reese again Because, as horrible as his actions were because he did directly lead to the death of an innocent young woman he does not deserve the same hell that Malcolm does, does not deserve the same hell that Malcolm does, and I do believe that he is capable of learning. He's so stubborn, which is why he is still there so many years after his death, but like that, that tenacity that he had that made him a good reporter, also made him a bad person in a lot of ways.
Speaker 3:I mean, it is interesting that he's able to sit on when reese, in particular, is an interesting character when we think about the like ripples. So this is the the, the setting the office, the therapist's office, is based on his ex-wife's office.
Speaker 3:Oh gosh and they're about that and the therapist is the guy that she was cheating with, wasn't cheating but was sleeping with. That made him so ungodly jealous that he was, um you know, pushed to, uh, to homicidal behavior. So the fact that reese can even be in that office and be having a conversation to me suggests that he has made considerable progress.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I don't know how that like slipped past me. I didn't even think about that. I had thought about the fact that like it must be weird for him to be talking to Lucifer as his therapist, but it just hadn't even occurred to me. Like he's going to recognize that office, oh wow, okay. But that also might explain why he's sitting next to Lamech, who's like I could chew chew in your face and not chew out of your misery.
Speaker 3:He's still pretty far down the self-actualization scale, their group hasn't progressed very far yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I do feel like Brent Norwalk, who is the bro-y character from the Good Place, yeah, and who we see in the end. Who's like. But if I tell her to smile, she'll look prettier. Aren't I doing a good thing? Yeah, I feel like he's in there too, like he's getting therapy with Lucifer too. Yeah, I appreciate the story arc for Amenadiel and the way that they show it that he realizes like this is not a job for one angel individual and then in that like ending montage, he goes from sitting on this like elevated throne with everyone bending the knee to like no, we're not doing this anymore. It's not a hierarchy, and I found that really interesting. And he also made it clear that like he's going to continue to come back to Earth, he's not going to be God full time because he wants to see his son grow up and he wants to check in on the LAPD and make sure that Sonia is continuing that fight with Chloe's help.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, and what he says to Lucifer is that angels will be required to spend some time, yeah, on earth, with humans. So yeah, I I think what I appreciated about that was not just the act of the sentiment, but the fact that they told us in visual storytelling like there's no, like there's no, um, there's no dialogue for that bit. We see it all visually, which is pretty cool. It's pretty cool yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is fluff, but amenadiel's god costume was the it's just all white version of of his angel, but it really emphasized how weird those like arm gauntlets are well, and then you could see like the elastic, that when he puts out his hand to take chloe's and they kind of like close up on his like hand and wrist and you can kind of see like the elastic and like velcro and shit and you're just like really they put this season out in a hurry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was weird.
Speaker 3:It's a weird looking outfit, yeah but at least he wasn't wearing birkenstocks with the socks the one thing that I noted while I was watching that scene was like oh so, like linda's envision, like linda's vision of what silver city looks like is actually not that far off, yeah. And then I immediately thought, well, because they wanted to use the same set, yeah, yeah, definitely took me out of the story.
Speaker 2:I, same thing, Same thing. I was just like couldn't you have made like Linda's vision? Look janky.
Speaker 3:Yeah, because the only thing janky about it was tom's costume. Yeah, yeah and hair.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the thing that struck me the first time I saw it and we've talked a little bit about this in previous episodes is how the story also is focusing on the importance of meaningful work or or a purpose, a meaningful purpose, and I really that really was struck me and was important to me the first time I watched it.
Speaker 2:This time around, I, I, I wasn't as and I think it's cause I wasn't watching it in a binge like in a binge, I really saw that with, like Chloe's story and how she was like lost without her job because she needs a purpose, and then like there's, you know, you put a exclamation point on it with Lucifer saying, like being God isn't my calling, and I found my calling this time around, when he says to Amenadiel being God isn't my calling, I was just like, oh, for fuck's sake, who wants to do that? If you have to do like, sometimes you just have to do things because they need to be done, and like that, that was my. I was really annoyed, kind of for the same reason that Amenadiel was. It's just like we fought a war, we lost siblings, and sometimes you just have to step up to the plate in the way that Lucifer wants to as a father, and so I think that that's unfair of me. But it's also like when you're talking about divinity, for someone to be like. It's not really my calling.
Speaker 3:I have to say, like I have recently, like within the past six months, six to 12 months like the idea of calling has come up, for whatever reason, a couple of times, and I hate it.
Speaker 3:I hate the idea of calling, of a calling like a calling, a singular no-transcript. But the thing is like, if there were, if I did pick one of the things that I'm good at or one of the things that I like doing cause they aren't necessarily the same and just pursued it with unrelenting attention, I wouldn't be happy, Not forever, Like you'd be Reese, Like and and, and it may be the case that there's a thing that I want to do and and it, and it is a calling for me for a time, and then it may fade, and that has to be okay too, and that has to be okay too. And so I think part of what just feels crunchy in a bad way for me with this idea of Lucifer finding his calling, is that even more so than me. I'm 48. So what have I got? Another 40, 50 years tops in order to like have to pursue this calling.
Speaker 2:I intend to live to be 104 and I don't want a whole lot of time without you. So Okay, so you got to like 60 is 59, 59 years.
Speaker 3:Still still 60 years left. He's got literally forever left, so he's gonna have to do this one thing for forever. Yeah, because it's his calling, yeah I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like I, I know what they were going for in that. He was saying, like this is something that I can do and I want to do and it will put good into the world and all of that is is is excellent. But you know, speaking of dad again, when I would complain about work as a kid, dad would say that's why they call it work. If we're fun, they'd call it play.
Speaker 3:Right. I have said if it were fun, that we would call it super happy fun time. I was wrong, friends. I was wrong.
Speaker 2:We don't have to be miserable in order to make a living Well, but the thing that I come back to on that is I love what I do. I'm a freelance writer and I love it. I have always wanted to be a writer. I never thought I would write about money. But even though I love what I do and it is the perfect intersection of my skills and my preferences and things that I can do to help other people there are times when I hate it because that's why it's called work, and so and that's something that I think is a problem with, like you know, as an early 20, something our uncle said to me like you know, if you, if you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life. And it's like that's not true, because, you know, even writers have to do invoicing, even comedians have to deal with bookers. So that that's part of it. And then the other thing is, if we have it as this idea of there's this one thing that's perfect, it's on high.
Speaker 2:So I almost didn't have this career because I started writing, because we moved when I was pregnant with my eldest and he was due at the beginning of the next school year, so I was going to be teaching that year. So I started looking for some freelance writing gigs and one of the first ones I landed was a money site. My joke back then was like lots of people want you to write for them, but only the money. Bloggers have figured out how to make a pay so they can pay you. And so that took off pretty quickly and within a year I was invited to a financial media conference and I was like I don't want to go. This isn't real writing. I'm supposed to be a novelist. I'm supposed to be woefully literary, with my cape flapping in the wind and I'm writing about credit card myths. And then, like six weeks before the conference, I was like what the hell is my problem? People want to pay me to put words on paper, which is what I've always wanted to do. Why am I quibbling about how what I'm writing?
Speaker 3:what the words are.
Speaker 2:Yeah and so and so that's. That's kind of my issue with the idea of a calling is because then you turn down things that don't exactly fit what you've always thought, because your thinking is like, well, it doesn't fit, it's not perfect, so it's not my calling, yeah, yeah, any other substantive storytelling or other political, sociological, psychological, cosmological things that you want to make sure we lift up from these final two episodes.
Speaker 2:No, um, no, I think, um I'm. I was glad that we saw and I know that they didn't have time to do more than this but I was glad that we saw, like again in that montage, like the interaction between Chloe and Sonia. I've already forgotten the, the, her, her, last name. Harris. Thank you, officer Harris. Um, and we see that she becomes detective um at when Chloe is Lieutenant.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 2:Um, and I, I like I really appreciated that there's part of me that just we should even it's just with extras. There were more if there were.
Speaker 3:Yes, and there's even with that. There's a little bit of white saviorism in that. Yes, yes, that that sonia harris. Harris has her detectiveship to like.
Speaker 2:she has to thank Decker for it, and I think they're trying to indicate that it's not quite like that, because they have Amenadiel there with Chloe.
Speaker 3:But Amenadiel chose Chloe to be his, you know, God's representative on the LAPD.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So there's still a little bit, a little bit, a little.
Speaker 2:It's a little questionable but you know we've come a long way. Yeah, copaganda, it's my hope that you know. We look back on things that were progressive in the nineties and like they are horrifying to watch.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So things that feel like a big leap forward. Now my hope is, 30 years from now we'll be like, ooh, that's a cringy, yeah, thank goodness we're further along from there. So like that's going to happen and it should happen, and I hope that it happens more quickly than 30 years. Um, but I I see that happening yeah, yeah, agreed.
Speaker 3:Well, I guess there is one more thing. Um, I said it would be the last that I brought, but I, when I asked that question I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about the scene where lucifer convinces rory not to kill lemak and rory's like devil face is coming, and even sort of the way they talk about the monster that lives inside you and not letting it drive. That's not the word they use, but yeah, I felt that was so.
Speaker 2:I liked that scene where he convinces her not to kill the Mac but then later on he's like I know the monster inside you and I'm like ouch.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's not what?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I didn't, I didn't. I'm not sure how I feel about that dialogue either and, like I make, I understand how we got there because of the visual imagery of the self-actualization and the devil face. That's how you see yourself.
Speaker 1:And also.
Speaker 2:If he had said something like instead of the monster inside you, the monster you see yourself as, You're worried you will become yeah yeah, but I don't yeah. It was just said as if it were a fact yeah, I don't know, there was something to just there's.
Speaker 3:There's something in there that I I can't quite put my finger on, that doesn't feel quite right which I think is about labeling negative emotions as monsters. Yeah, yeah, like her anger was righteous, she was entitled to be exceedingly angry with Lamech, and that's not monstrous. Like that anger is not monstrous. Yeah, and I think I guess that's that is that's what monstrous. Like that anger is not monstrous. Yeah, um, and I think I guess that's that is that's what it is, that's what's bothersome.
Speaker 2:And like lucifer kept her from acting on the anger on something that she couldn't take back it's um, like in um black panther, killmonger, his anger, his anger righteous, and that's why, like, one of the things I love about him as a villain is that he is a sympathetic villain because he has very, very good reason for feeling the way he does. What makes him a monster is the way he acts on that righteous anger, yeah, but the, the and the movie does a really good job of not shaming him for his anger. And, in fact, t'challa changes the way he leads Wakanda because he learns from Killmonger what the world is like outside of Wakanda and he learns from that righteous anger. And so it makes it clear that there is nothing wrong with the anger. What's wrong is how he goes about dealing with it or expressing it.
Speaker 3:Right, but I think the way that the dialogue was written, like the monster inside you, to me, me that implies that the anger itself is the monster, um, and I think that dialogue, like so much of this season, could have stood for a little bit of revision. Yeah, so it's more like you know what your anger could make you capable of, or something I don't know but. And they wanted to use the word monster because of the devil face.
Speaker 3:But I think therein actually lies the problem. I think that actually was the problem, because the anger, and the monster anger is not monstrous. It can make us do monstrous things, but anger itself is not. That was the lack of nuance that that is that is bothering me now yeah yeah, well, we've been talking for a long minute now, should we? I feel like I threw in my pieces of fluff like, along the way, did you have any that you saved?
Speaker 2:yes, okay, the moment when charlie, when Charlie gets his wings and Amenadiel is like, yeah, in such a dorky way, yeah, that is what I took. That is the thing that I remember like most vividly from that montage. That's funny, because it just was adorable, it was so sweet. I did wish that Adriana could have been at the part of birthday party, although then, like him, having wings would have had to have been explained.
Speaker 3:Yeah, oh, lucifer's red shirt. It's pretty hot. I like that. Kind of remind me of Sherlock's purple shirt is pretty hot. I like that Kind of remind me of Sherlock's purple shirt. Purple shirt of sex.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they both go to the same tailor, I think.
Speaker 3:It fits very well. Yeah, it really did.
Speaker 2:The other little bit of fluff is I feel like the showrunners were like let's give them one little ass on the end, Because we get to see.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, that opening montage when he's singing and dancing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and he's feeling good and jumps out of bed. It's like here's a roadie.
Speaker 3:Sure, yeah. Well, there was a lot of fan service in that whole thing. I mean not just the dancing there was also the checklist, or like check on father frank, is one of the things that he was supposed to do yeah, yeah, which that? That's pretty awesome yeah, that was yeah straight up fan service, but I thank you thank you for my service thank you for my pornography.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, if they couldn't get. Oh, I'm not gonna remember that actor's name, it's domingo, I think, domingo coleman, something like that. Um, who, if? If you look him up, he was at the met gala? I think it was this year, might have been last year, and he looks really hot, oh my god.
Speaker 3:The man can dress, oh my god, and so like I, it would have been lovely if they could have gotten him back, just for like a cameo like for that, that montage where we see charlotte and dan in heaven, like we could have seen father frank there like playing the piano or something that could have been really cool.
Speaker 2:That could have been really cool. But you know, yeah, this is the difference between a show and a novel. Yeah, exactly, bring them back in the novel, no problem. In the show you got to deal with acting schedules and and the light tracks and things, yeah, yeah, other fluff uh no, I think that's all my fluff, although, oh, there is no baby in that blanket.
Speaker 3:No, there's definitely not a baby on the blanket. Nope, I'm not even sure. There was like a sack of flour, I think it was just a blanket Just a blanket.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also like her name is Aurora. Also like her name is Aurora Rory's a nickname, like I mean my kid goes by a nickname too. It's longer than her name, but like none of the stuff that was like welcome home would have said the nickname yeah, eh, okay. Well, since this is the last episode, I think we said we would maybe offer to our listeners our recommendations for other series to binge. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So obviously from the two of us. Good Omens is at the top of the list. It is a very different take, but a neil gaiman property and also, in some ways, they're in conversation with each other in some ways they are in conversation with each other.
Speaker 3:And there is, there is a similarly irreverent take on sort of the um, heaven, hell, god, kind of a questions and envisions heaven and hell as just bureaucracies, which is, uh, an interesting sort of different iteration of this.
Speaker 2:Similarly bureaucracies, uh, the good place, also in conversation with this show, uh, and clearly um, joe and ildy, um, and the showrunners were influenced by it, because lee, when we meet him in heaven, says I don't know what the fork is going on here.
Speaker 3:So right, that was which is a good place thing. Where you're not, you can't curse in heaven, so like there's. There's that one scene where eleanor is saying like you know, I'm not saying ash hole, I'm saying ash holes why can't I say fork? Yeah, yeah, um, and then I haven't watched them, but you went down to tom ellis rabbit hole and actually watched, like miranda, did you watch rush? Can you tell us about those?
Speaker 2:so I did not watch rush because I couldn't find it. Um, I'm not sure if it's streaming anywhere in the U S. Yeah, so, uh, well, it's a U S show, cause he, he, yeah, yeah, it's a U S show.
Speaker 2:And he, he, he has an American accent in it, so that's the other reason why I didn't like. I looked for it but didn't look too hard, because I'm like he's going to be Michael the whole time. Michael, yeah, oh, thank you. But but I did watch Miranda, which is the sitcom that got him his big break. Oh, I cannot remember her name, but it's starring Miranda. I don't know her last name, but she's a British comedian who is very awkward. She's a little bit like a British Liz Lemon, except more awkward and not as like I don't. Um, Tina Fey is very classically pretty.
Speaker 3:She's conventionally attractive. Tina Fey is yes.
Speaker 2:Miranda is not, yeah, yes, um, and she's also very tall. She's like six foot one, I think, which is, I think, part of the reason why they cast Tom Ellis is because he was at least three inches taller than her.
Speaker 3:He's the boyfriend, Gary. Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's Gary, he's the uh, he's the love interest. They've been friends for like 15 or 20 years. At the, at at the onset of the show, um and uh, they've never gotten together, even though she's always really liked him. But it's um, just a number of different things, reasons why not. It is a little bit of cringy humor, but I was able to watch the whole thing and enjoyed it.
Speaker 2:There were some scenes that I needed to fast forward through because they were a little bit like Rowan Atkinson, mr Bean, where she gets herself into these ridiculous situations, ridiculous situations, and some of it has to do with the fact that British people will just like not make eye contact because they're embarrassed on her behalf and their reaction is part of what's funny.
Speaker 2:But I was sitting there going like, oh God, it's so embarrassing for a couple of things, but for most of it it was really really funny. And there's there's some wonderful relationships in there, like her best friend. She and her best friend are like really hilarious together and the the running gags, like she's she's like awkward about sex and so she'll like sex anytime she says it. And her mother is very posh and um and is like wants her to act in a certain way, and so she'll be like, what fun, fun about anything that Miranda does that she doesn't really approve of. So it's it's well worth the um, the, the checking out. And uh, a young Tom Ellis is just, he's adorable, and and the physical humor. He does a lot with physical humor in that too, which is also pretty great.
Speaker 3:Any other shows that you want to recommend to our listeners.
Speaker 2:So there's a couple others that I feel like have a similar flavor. Dead Boy Detectives yes, there's a similar like well, there's a case of the week. Yeah, dead Boy Detectives, except that it's without propaganda. Without propaganda because they're um ghostly private investigators and they are solving, getting justice for ghosts who died without their murders being solved or or deaths being or have some sort of unresolved on you know unfinished business.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and uh, you, you get the. This is also a neil gaiman property. He did not write the show, but he created the characters, and so there's another sense of like the bureaucracy of the underworld, right right, the afterlife, basically, so that I highly recommend. It's amazing. What were you going to?
Speaker 3:say Sandman.
Speaker 3:Sandman, I haven't seen it, tracy has so and the dead boy detectives are in the sandman universe. And so sandman was the, the graphic novel, the comic that in some ways really put gaiman on the map, which again like his brain and the way he kind of conceives cosmology and like what is sort of bigger than humans, really, really fascinating. And so there are people who have been game and fans for a long time who want to kind of gatekeep and say that the sandman, the tv show, is not as good as the graphic novel. I say, poppycock, I think the graphic novel is amazing and also it's old at this point. And so there are things that they did that updated the story to bring it into the 21st century.
Speaker 2:Like Kirby Hal-Baptiste playing.
Speaker 3:Death. Yes, a lot of people were mad that Death was Black and there are other things that kind of get updated in the TV show tv show, but gaiman was the showrunner, he was involved at every step and it is gorgeous and the storytelling is beautiful and it I mean it's disturbing because gaiman often is but um, but disturbing in ways that are kind of like disturbing because humans are disturbing, I guess, is what I want to say Like human beings do disturbing things, but but the sort of the, the questions that it asks about the nature of the universe are really really fascinating. And in fact Lucifer was. Initially there was a comic book which was a spinoff from the sandman universe. This lucifer with tom ellis is out, is has its own thing. It's really like spun off so much that I'm not sure it's even still in the sandman universe and they do have the same original source material. So that's pretty cool yeah, um.
Speaker 2:One other recommendation I'd like to make that is not Neil Gaiman related. It's Dead End Paranormal Park, which is an animated series. My eldest introduced me to it. There's two seasons on Netflix unfortunately got canceled after the second season. It ends on a sad note that I know would not have. There would have been a less sad finale, but it was a satisfying ending and it is mostly very light and fun. It's a young boy named well, not young, he's a 16 or 17 year old boy named Barney, who is transgender and is fighting with his family, applies for a job at this amusement park for Pauline Phoenix, who is a kind of Dolly Parton-esque character, except that she's bad. Dolly Parton is all that is good and joyful in this world and there's like a portal to hell in this amusement park. Barney ends up living there. His dog ends up being able to talk.
Speaker 3:He has a tiny piece of a demon in him. Yes, I've seen it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's a whole. The idea of found family is in this. One of the things I loved about it is that there is a little bit of angst based on the fact that Barney is trans, but that's not the point of the show. That's not the driving force. Other than it gets him to live at the amusement park rather than at home, it doesn't really have a whole heck of a lot to do with the plot.
Speaker 3:Right, it's not actually about. It's not about Barney's trauma.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's not trauma Because Barney's plot Right, it's not actually about. It's not about Barney's trauma. Yeah, it's not because Barney's yeah, yeah and uh like there's a lovely romance between Barney and and another worker at the park and it's just, it's just delightful, Well worth the watch.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed it too. I enjoyed it too.
Speaker 2:Owl house, I feel like is another one, that's uh yeah, I liked Owl House a lot.
Speaker 3:I really really liked Owl House. I like talk about binging. I binged it. The way that I binged Lucifer and I, I, I adored it. It was really great. There's some um and again there are some queer characters. There's a non-binary character and that's just who they are. It's not about their queerness or their non-binary-ness and it's supernatural and there's a portal between worlds and the themes are about found family and also about being oneself, being true to oneself, versus sort of fitting into the slats or the predefined lines that society would ask you to fit into. Yeah, also animated.
Speaker 2:Lucifer Itch, if you haven't seen it. Veronica Mars it's entirely in the real world, but it's a case of the week, not copaganda. There's a little bit in there, but for the most part it's not, because Veronica and her father are private investigators and set in high school, so it's like high school noir. Very, very funny, has very satisfying romantic arcs as well. Very funny, has very satisfying romantic arcs as well. And then Tracy and I we mentioned it earlier, but we've been rewatching BBC Sherlock, which I think also has a similar kind of feel to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you get the normal partner and the eccentric partner. Yeah, so you get that so kind of like bones um or castle.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I also want to mention Emily, and I have a second show called deep thoughts about stupid shit, uh, which you should go check out. We do this kind of the, the kind of analysis that we did with Lucifer, but for a different show or movie every every week. We did do an episode about Lucifer to which I will link in the show notes for this show, but in general, please come check us out. We have a really, really good time. We sometimes have guests on to talk about their favorite things, and I'm going to put it out into the universe. My hope for this show is that one day we will have creators famous creators even come on to talk about their influences.
Speaker 2:Please come on our show.
Speaker 3:Not to talk about Lucifer, joe and LD, but to talk about shows that mattered to you when you were a young person. So, uh, you know, we'd love to have you come on and talk about, like, the TV shows that you watched when you were a kid and what's you know, like, is this actually moonlighting? Is that why we have this pairing, the way that you did it? Like where did it come from? And and like, look, like we look back at those things and see the good, the bad and the ugly of the things that created the furniture in our brains that we maybe don't even know are there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, Em, this has been fun, oh my goodness, I'm kind of like I'm feeling a little misty. This is the end.
Speaker 3:Yeah, me too, me too, but it's not the end, because deep thoughts must be the end.
Speaker 2:Yes, Well, I'm starting to understand why kumail nanjiani just kind of abandoned his x-files files, because, like, getting to the end is kind of sad, whereas if you just abandon it it's never over I mean honestly, if we we were so close that I was like we got to just finish it. But but like there was a, long gap.
Speaker 3:There was a long gap between, like our episode at the end of season five and then when we started season six and probably if we weren't doing deep thoughts, I would have said like do we really need?
Speaker 2:to yeah, partially because season six is nobody's favorite. It's been real. It has. Thank you all for joining us on this journey.
Speaker 1:Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom, licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 4.0 License. Visit the show notes for the URL. I am an artificially generated voice powered by Narrakeepcom. Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix. Tracy and Emily are not affiliated with Fox, netflix nor WB. If you liked this episode, subscribe to keep overthinking with them and visit the show notes for other ways to connect.