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Lightbringers: Illuminating the Deeper Meaning of the Crime-solving Devil TV Show
Tracie and Emily are two sisters who really love the show Lucifer. We're rewatching the series two episodes at a time and taking the time to illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil tv show. Yes, we are overthinking it.
WARNING: There are definitely spoilers. If you haven't watched the whole series (all 6 seasons), listen at your own risk!
Lightbringers: Illuminating the Deeper Meaning of the Crime-solving Devil TV Show
Lucifer 503 + 504 "¡Diablo!" & "It Never Ends Well for the Chicken"
The layers of meta-commentary in the episode about a TV show where the actual devil is a consultant with the LAPD is lots of fun, and has the sisters wondering if Lucifer would have been more offended on Chloe’s behalf by turning her character into a stripper-turned-detective who doesn’t seem to be particularly bright.
And the return of Lilith in a 1946 black-and-white mystery episode invites some exploration of the mythology of Lilith, the first human woman who became a monster. The Egyptomania and Orientalism in the same episode lead to a long tangent about the ways in which humans tend to ascribe literal magic to anything they don’t fully understand (e.g. Ancient Egyptian mummies in the early 20th century, computers in the 1990s, or bitcoin in the last 10 years).
As always there’s some breathless appreciation of the beauty of this cast (Tracie admits Tom Ellis is her sexual orientation) and the evidence of their skill when the same actor plays different characters.
Originally published as a YouTube show with different theme music.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah, the plot which they overthink.
Speaker 2:I am here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, and she does use a hyphen.
Speaker 3:And I'm here with my sister, emily Guy-Burken. She does not use a hyphen, it's true.
Speaker 2:And together we are doing Lightbringers, where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil TV show. And yes, we are overthinking it, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Totally overthinking it. And so today we're overthinking 503 and 504, diablo, and it never ends well for the chicken. So, and these are actually it's really interesting that they ended up paired for us, because they're an interesting pair in terms of, like, the writers kind of playing with the conventions of the show and twisting it a little bit, which is kind of fun. So should we start with?
Speaker 2:Diablo yes, let's start with Diablo. I would like to say and nothing to that actor, but the guy they chose to play Diablo, is not even remotely handsome. Agreed.
Speaker 3:He's not the blonde, it just looks stupid. Yeah, like bro-y, like yeah, lucifer's not bro-y, he's not bro-y.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I. The character they've created is kind of fun, yes, but the actor I'm like. Why would they choose him? But then they were going to replace him with iced tea. Well, and why would they choose him?
Speaker 3:But then they were going to replace him with a with iced tea. So well, and also, like I mean like they were both like sort of super caricaturized, because you know the Christie dancer, that actress also doesn't look any like no, except that she's blonde. But so I think it was, it was, it was intentional, I'm sure. I'm sure, I'm sure One thing that was interesting like naming that that we never learned the actor's name. They refer to him as Diablo the whole time.
Speaker 2:And they refer to the actress playing dancer as dancer the whole time.
Speaker 3:I mean, at the end, when Chloe's talking to the dancer actor, she says the actor who played diablo, but they never say his name, which is really interesting that they chose not to name them, especially since it was like a like a weird sort of meta episode. Meta episode, like they didn't want us to be thinking about tom ellis and lauren german. They wanted us to stay in character, but they did want to talk about the fact that it was a tv show. So I found that like an interesting detail. Um, and we had the names of both of the showrunners and the dead guy. Was that actually joe, or did they just? Is it somebody who just looks like joe henderson? I don't know. I didn't even think of that Because I know Joe shows like he makes a cameo in season six as one of the prisoners. We'll get to it.
Speaker 2:And Ildi has made a cameo before, when Amenadiel is trying to make friends and she's typing in a cafe and he like freaks her out. Then he like freaks her out.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I don't know if that was actually Joe Henderson, but like bald dude beard, like showrunner, yeah yeah, so I don't know, it was sort of interesting. Some of the meta aspects of it I found really really interesting and and just fun, which is the point I mean. This was, it was like this season was almost like a gift because they had been canceled and they moved over to Netflix and then are they going to get another? Can you know are they going to get another season or not? And blah, blah, blah. So, yeah, I thought that was, um, that was pretty interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's definitely, um, some fan service.
Speaker 2:Yes, so the other thing that was interesting, too, was the fact that the way that Dancer Christy Dancer was portrayed was that she was a bumbling idiot, just beautiful and eye-candy, and that is very much not how Lucifer would have described Chloe Decker, and so it's curious that that is the direction the TV show went, and, if I could overthink it for a moment, I do feel like some of this was pointed commentary from the showrunners about how it felt to be on Fox and so, like the fact that they wanted like I don't know for sure, but my suspicion is they wanted a love triangle in season three, and so they were kind of making Chloe look different than how they had imagined her, with the way that she reacted to Pierce and things like that.
Speaker 2:That's very much a guess on my part, but there were things that the showrunners did in season three only at the insistence of Fox executives, and so I have wondered if that you know, the fact that the Chloe character in Diablo was an idiot and like had been a dance like a pole dancer was hyper sexualized.
Speaker 3:yeah, she wasn't, just was. I mean like like chloe did take her top off in a movie as a young person, but like christy is, she's a stripper. And like the only one of the only lines of dialogue we actually see her deliver is I'll polish your bugle anytime. Yeah, so yeah, or or through Lucifer and I put my bra back on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and that's that is one note that I feel like is a little bit off, in that Lucifer is like oh, wow, this show is pretty cool, and I feel like he would be. I think you would be offended on her part. Offended on her part. Well, on her behalf, I mean on her behalf, yeah, or at least be like wow, this isn't you at all, you know, or something like that, you know maybe, maybe, although he's such a narcissist and he was so enjoying the Diablo representation of him, yeah, he might have.
Speaker 3:Like it doesn't feel wildly out of character that he wouldn't, you know, especially since he's feeling like things aren't going the way they he wants them to in their reunion. So I don't think you're wrong, but I also don't think it's like there have been other moments where we're like that wouldn't have happened. I'm not feeling that. True, true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the moment where he and Dan and then Ella are like they have this script in their play.
Speaker 3:Well, that actually is really interesting in that Lucifer takes on the role of Christy in that American accent that sounds like Michael and has Dan do Diablo. Like that's weird, isn't it? Yeah, because he was so narcissistically into it. Wouldn't he want to play the character that was him? Yeah, I don't know narcissistically into it, wouldn't he want to play the character that was him?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know, I don't know, you know the other thing that I feel like is a little not like not miss the mark, but like not bullseye is I know it is the show convention that Lucifer sees himself in the in the in the case of the week, and like thinks that there's some insight that he can gain. And this time it's Chloe and like it's been Chloe because it was Michael and whatever the match of the actress playing Christy dancer being controlled or being there only at the service of the diablo character like just doesn't feel no, aligned enough for chloe to actually put any weight in it, especially since we know that chloe is a former actor.
Speaker 3:you know, like that part, I just it didn't it didn't mesh her disappointment when she says to Lucifer I thought I had found someone who could help me process this. That's not the word she uses, um, and, but I was wrong. Like I just don't believe that she would have put so much stock in what that actress would have to say about having worked on this show. Yeah, so that did feel a little. I mean, it fit the convention of the show, sure, but it didn't fit what I know about the character of Chloe Decker.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fit what I know about the character of Chloe Decker. Yeah, well, it's also. She is in a life altering situation. She was not supposed to exist and was created for a specific purpose. She's having a literal existential crisis, exactly, and the woman playing Christy Dancer was stuck in a show with a contract she didn't like. Yeah, and I completely comprehend how that can make someone feel powerless. If you feel like you're stuck in a career situation, I don't comprehend killing people over it, but I can. I can understand, like those, that sense of feeling trapped and that sense of feeling like you don't have any control. But there are ways out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, always you know, there's always contracts all the time, all the time, and so, like I know, her feeling is like well, if I break this contract, my career is over, which, again, I, I can't. I kind of have a comprehension that hollywood is like that, where you know, if you are someone who ends up breaking a contract, that's that's going to be a black mark on your no, if we overthink it, she was.
Speaker 3:The thing she was excited about was an indie film. Yeah, it wasn't a wb, I mean, it wasn't a warner brothers project. It was a yeah she names it as an indie, a small indie film.
Speaker 2:So if we're I mean if we're overthinking it, yeah, but then again, like it's also like I can imagine, warner brothers is among, like, the top three or four people or entities you don't want to piss off.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, um, I also can't imagine killing someone over a job. No, no, I mean thankfully. Thankfully, I'm glad. I can't imagine that it feels like a like a solid, like a one for Tracy.
Speaker 2:I don't know, like it's yes, but it's not something we'd put on your tombstone. No, it's a pretty low bar, yeah.
Speaker 3:Agreed.
Speaker 2:Agreed. So I would like to talk about the fight scene between Lucifer and Michael, just because I have no idea how they did it. Yeah.
Speaker 3:I have no idea how they did it. I think CG must be involved to change one of the actors' faces, like one of the fighter's faces.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Also, Tom must have been acting against like acted it twice against a different stuntman or whatever.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's pretty cool. It's also like what a testament, what a fantastic actor he is physically, that like. I believe that that is a different person and I'm like, you know, like Tom Ellis is my sexual orientation, but as Michael, like as Michael, I'm like, no, I'm like it's funny hard pass, but it's the same man. It's the same man. How is that possible? I know he's just so good, he's so good, I mean it's so. I think I've probably said this before. Um, I don't know if I've said it on the show or not, but I remember when ellis was up like nominated for an award for like best villain for some tv show awards ceremony and I was like lucifer is not a villain and then I was like, oh wait, michael oh my goodness, oh yeah, something like it's partially costuming, like something about a turtleneck and blazers, just really not appealing not okay, yeah, so I think that's, that's part of it, but it's not just there's.
Speaker 3:he holds his face in it in in such a way that it makes those same features just deeply unattractive. It's really, really fascinating to me, he, he it's amazing to me that it's.
Speaker 2:It's deeply upsetting seeing Michael on screen and like and I think some of it has to do with the fact that I recognize like that is the same actor, like I find him so unappealing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, it's so much so that, like some you know, I follow all these Tom Ellis fan stuff on social media and every once in a while one will come through and it'll be like Lucifer Morningstar and it's a picture of Ellis, but like with dark wings, and I'm like that is Michael.
Speaker 2:Get. Get that off of my timeline. Lucifer has white wings and you need to get it right. Get it right. It strikes me Well. No, I guess it makes sense. It's like the fact that this is the first time that Lucifer is like all right, I'm going to mark you so that no one can mistake you for me again. And I was like how is that the first time that this has occurred to him? And you know however many?
Speaker 3:millennia. It only occurred to him because Maze's blade was right there. It was really. It was really like a moment of opportunity and not planning yeah, a different blade wouldn't work, that's true, right. I'm sure they had to be a demon and bloody to one another. But work. That's true, right, I'm sure they have to be a demon and bloody to one another, but it has to be like the right, like you know, a celestial blade of something, yeah, so that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I also I'm thinking he's more pissed at Michael now than he's ever been in his life. I'm thinking, um, he's trying to like screw things up with, uh, with Chloe, potentially putting Chloe in danger, like all the things that he cares most deeply about.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, I do want to talk about, uh, maze and Lucifer's fight because, uh, it directly leads into never ends well for the chicken. It directly leads into never ends well for the chicken. So we had talked about our last episode. How, like, oh my goodness, how could he not take maze with him? Right, and it occurred to me after we recorded that first, since Linda had just had Charlie um and Charlie was was in danger, would Maze have left her, Even if Lucifer said hey, I'm going back, Do you want to come with me? Um, which Lucifer still should have done, but he also wasn't a bit of a hurry, which like to give him, to be as empathetic to him as possible. I imagine he had to do it quickly before he lost his nerve.
Speaker 3:Also with the nature of time, the long like a few minutes here. Yes, yes, few years down there, or whatever, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then the fact that when he and maze fight with each other in this episode and he says to her you're not my servant anymore, I'm letting you live your life, that is also like a very. That's a valid point.
Speaker 3:That was actually that I've had forgotten that. That was the reason that he gave, obviously when we recorded last time and I actually found that very endearing of him because his treatment of maze throughout is like very problematic, yeah, through up until this point and that felt like the most, actually the most he's seen her as an equal and the most like Open hearted connection with her, even though she felt abandoned. That we've heard him kind of express not as like convenience but as genuine sort of respect for her agency, like I don't feel like she's, and that's that's part of what's so hard for her is she's never actually had agency. Well, and he also he sucks at communicating, like he didn't say that to her. If he'd said like hey, that's part of.
Speaker 2:What's so hard for her is she's never actually had agency. Well, and he also. He sucks at communicating Like he didn't say that to her, If he'd said like hey, you're not my servant anymore, so I have to go um, you know, but you, you need to live whatever life you need to live, and I'd love to see you.
Speaker 3:but have a minute deal, he can bring you down. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, deal, he can bring you down. Yeah, yeah, whatever. Yeah, yeah, um, it's the fact that he didn't say anything. He could have freaking texted her yeah, yeah, text before you. Uh, before he scarpered, so like. But that actually, that all it all fits and is, I feel, like, well written, in that it all fits with the character, with the characters, so, um, that she would feel abandoned and that he is being he's attempting to.
Speaker 3:He's attempting to be respectful of her choices. Yeah yeah, or make, allow her to make her own choices, or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah and then I mean when he's like amenity, all his wings he could have taken you down was reasonable, but also like in that kind of an unfair thing, to say yeah, but he could have texted her like, hey, I'm heading, I'm heading. Do you want to come home? I'm going to deal, have a man to deal, bring you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does sort of make her abandonment her fault.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's yeah. Well, let's get into. It never ends well for the chicken. Okay, I love that episode so much. I love it so much. First of all, I love Trixie and Lucifer.
Speaker 3:She's adorable. I'm like, yeah, their relationship is adorable and I think she's really like grown up, like lovely I mean the six or seven year old that they cast like now at whatever 12 or 13 she's just she's pulling it off yeah, yeah, she's, yeah well, and it's tough because with child actors you never know yeah she does a great job.
Speaker 2:She also like they do I feel like they do a good job of she's a little old to be like, hey, let's have a story. But then the fact that this was predetermined with uh, with me, that makes it make like it just it makes so much sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, and then luc her motherhood Like she was a shitty mother, very, very, very shitty mother. But when she's talking to Lucifer and saying, like he asked, do you want me to bring them, bring your children up to say goodbye? And she's like no, they're perfect as they are. There is kind of a fierce maternal pride in that and it's understandable why she did what she did.
Speaker 3:It's her trauma response yeah, trying to make sure that they don't go through the trauma she went through. Yeah, and so instead subjects them to's her trauma response yeah, trying to make sure that they don't go through the trauma she went through.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so instead subjects them to a different trauma, different trauma, yeah, which I mean that's so common. That's how trauma works, unfortunately. Yeah, and so it's. You can be so much more sympathetic once you understand that, but as her child there'd be no way of understanding that or getting to that moment of sympathy, like it's just. It's just tragic and it also. The thing that I found really interesting is Leslie Ann Brandt plays Lilith, but it's another one where, like, I never thought of her as Maze during that. The 1946 sequence and the way that she and lucifer interact is very different and some of it is, I feel, like he sees lilith more as an equal, totally, completely agree, and some of that is, I mean, they've both been around forever, I guess I mean like not forever close to it close to he's older than she, but not by much.
Speaker 2:I mean in the scheme of the cosmos not by much, yeah, and so the fact that he wears the ring because it reminds him of a friend is awfully endearing. It's also so upsetting on Maze's part. You know, he's got something that of her mother's, that she has no way of knowing about.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And every day she sees it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and she would, presumably would have noticed when it showed up on his hands. Oh, that's a good point, because her relationship with him would have predated 1946 yeah, yeah yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2:So while we're overthinking this episode, you're gonna get into the stuff I don't want to think about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, I, I will avoid that, but no, no, we can talk about it. Well, like the, what he owes her for is his army of demons, and we've talked about the fact that, like in Jewish a prokofar, you know, the sort of Jewish sources indicate that he is the father of those children, although some sources say perhaps it is sleeping human men. The fact that she has the power to imbue her immortality into a inanimate object, what well, so what does? Okay, inanimate object.
Speaker 2:What Well? So what does? Okay? What is the story of her?
Speaker 3:creation Cause. I know, okay, god created humans, male and female, created he them?
Speaker 2:Okay, and that's all we have Hashem took clay, turn this play into human beings. That's uh, because that's that is said specifically of adam, though like what once we get this.
Speaker 3:So that is the assumption of later literature is that they were both created from the same clay at the same time. Okay, um, I mean, and like last time we talked about Lilith, you asked about the etymology of the name and I didn't know. So I've done a little bit of research, not a lot. There's a lot out there and there's apparently there's some disagreement, but it's seems to be related to other proto-Semitic languages like Acadian, where there were I'm going to probably pronounce it wrong because I've only read it, I haven't heard anybody say it but like, uh, lelu or Lilit, um, that was like a night demon and even in the Hebrew, or the way it's written, um, it's looks like it may be related to the word Lila, which is night, so like night bird or night demon.
Speaker 3:In fact there's, and then, at different points in the hebrew scriptures, like in the prophets, there'll be like a list of monsters, monsters, and lilith or lilith will be one of the lists of monsters. So there's certainly like power ascribed to her after the she leaves the garden. At least from the little sort of surface research that I did, some of that power is assumed to be because she consorted with the devil. So because she actually was okay, yeah, but that's where the power came from. Yeah, I, I have that.
Speaker 2:She, yeah, so anyway, but even okay, okay, let me, let me, let me give. Let me give you my idea. Okay, so God created Adam and Lilith out of clay and breathed life into them. Like, that is how it's described. Yeah, uh, lilith gets banished. Yeah, uh, lilith gets banished. Yeah, before Eve is created, we got the whole, uh, fruit of the tree of knowledge, which is the point at which Adam and Eve are banished and they are made mortal as part of their banishment.
Speaker 3:Okay.
Speaker 2:So, based on this, Lilith still had the breath of Hashem within her, but how did she have the control to breathe?
Speaker 3:just it out? I'm not. I'm actually not, like I'm not questioning the immortality'm questioning the control of, like, taking it out and then imbuing it into the ring. How did what? What? And my next overthinking, which is totally because they didn't know that that's what the ring was, but the fact that he had the ring on the couple of times that he's died, he wouldn't have died, or he came back because the ring, not because of the other efforts to save him, like in the first season when Malcolm kills him.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and in the second season when he goes to hell so that he could go get the formula for the antidote, like or even like this, the one where in the in Lux he gets shot, oh yeah, yeah, like he had the ring on all three times and it doesn't make her invulnerable but it does make her immortal. One presumes, I'm presuming, yeah, I mean, maybe it does actually make her invulnerable because the gertie, the yeah, she said you were shot six times yeah.
Speaker 3:And she survived the volcano. She didn't talk about it the way that Kane had talked about surviving the volcano.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was a tough six months, yeah, well. And the way that Lucifer proved it proved that it didn't work. Was he shot Willie the Sausage King in the foot, which you know is?
Speaker 3:Well, the ring wasn't hadn't been imbued yet, so it didn't.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, yes, but what I'm saying is oh, he proved that it didn't work. He proved that it didn't work by doing that.
Speaker 3:So presumably it did make her invulnerable.
Speaker 2:So yes, yeah.
Speaker 3:So there's some inconsistencies here if you look a little closer. So, and it's going to come up again in six. The ring is so yeah, I don't know, but I like those those things about lilith and uh and the ring, like I mean it was fun, the black and white.
Speaker 2:White Gate and the Four E's. I love this episode. I think it's fantastic. I love the backstory for the ring, even though it does create some plot holes and some continuity issues. I'm more than happy to hand wave away the plot holes and I'm willing to have it be like the immortality in the ring has to be chosen, to be activated or something I I actually I don't think that's going to carry us in season in six when it works, because, oh yeah, because he doesn't, it surprises him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's true, I mean we'll get there, we'll get there so I don't know, in part because the the ring is part of Lucifer's wardrobe because of Tom Ellis, If I remember correctly. I think they had him all kitted up for it. He's like need something and he picked out the ring from wardrobe's promise or something.
Speaker 2:And there's the very first time we meet him, we see him tapping his fingers's the the the very first time we meet him, we see him like tapping his fingers on the uh, on the steering wheel, at the very first episode. And we see, see, that ring.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it was just kind of not a throwaway, but it was just just something that you know completes the look, and here we have this lovely backstory. That's fits character. Wise yeah, even if it creates plot holes.
Speaker 3:So I also want to talk about Jack and Cheryl.
Speaker 2:Yes, the episode right Because we've talked before about how there seems to be, yeah, anxiety about the idea of being lied into friendship.
Speaker 3:Right, Like I. I feel like I mean, it's not just this show, right. I think that, like just Hollywood had me thinking that people being paid to be my friend would be like a much bigger problem than it has turned out to be, or maybe I just don't know and I know revealed that people are being paid to be my friend. I don't know, but actually that with what's going on in this sort of overarching story, with Chloe realizing that she was a gift, it has a different sort of resonance than it has in the past. And in this show, Chloe was hurt badly when she realized that, you know, the maze and the and the other I think it was just maze were being her friend.
Speaker 2:Well, and she assumed it was, it was everyone, because I think it was just maze were being her friend, well, and she assumed it was, it was everyone because because lucifer was paying them too or something.
Speaker 3:So that sort of sense that someone would be only likes you because they are paid to or have to in some way, yeah and then, and then the sort of overarching story about her being a gift, like adds an extra layer to it, like the question of like is this real? Which you and I have talked about a lot because of this show, because the same plot device, actually, where lucifer was like I thought it was real and now I don't think it's like sort of the criteria for what is real and what isn't when it comes to relationships and emotion and, you know, affinity and affection.
Speaker 2:I have had that thought as a parent in some ways. And so my eldest, his favorite color, from the time he was like a year and a half old, was red, like just loved red. And so he went through a period when he was like two where he insisted on wearing a red shirt. Every day he had to wear a red shirt. So I was like, please do not join Starfleet. So when his little brother came along, I found it a lot easier to color code things so I could quickly know whose was what, and so I signed my youngest the color of blue, just for easy color coding. My youngest favorite color is blue and I'm not saying I feel guilty, but I feel a little weird about it because I'm just like did you actually like the color blue or was it assigned to you? And like it doesn't matter, it really doesn't, you know it's, it's a color. But I've had similar, similar thoughts about the youngest has expressed interest in art and uh, like we went on vacation and I let him use my, my phone to take pictures and we realized he has a very good eye, which I told him and then he told everyone. So he was, uh, he was eight at the time and you know we'd see other people who were, you know, trying to take pictures like oh, I can take it for you, I have a good eye, I have a better eye than most people anyway, but because of that I have been, you know, I buy art related, like art supplies for for birthday gifts and supplies for birthday gifts and am encouraging him to really enjoy and explore that. Again, it's not that I feel guilty, but I sometimes feel a little weird about it because it's just like how much of this is him and how much of this is me, and does it matter? Obviously, creating a human being for my child is different, but there is, there is some of that too, like there are forces working in your life that are intentional decisions by other people that you don't have control over, that do end up creating paths in your life that you might not otherwise be taking, and that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a bad thing, but it's.
Speaker 2:It's an interesting question because I know that I like thinking back on my childhood. There are things that I'm like would I have chosen that if I had been raised in a different family? And I don't know, and sometimes that makes me a little frustrated, particularly with the Jack and Shirley situation. What's interesting is that Jack's sergeant, or you know, the, the, his army buddy, the, but who is his captain, his commanding captain, captain, specifically hired Shirley to help Jack get over his, uh, his PTSD. Well, it's shell shock is what they called it at the time which I mean, is actually very in in keeping with like how 1940s people would think of things.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and obviously Jack is not over his trauma, but what the captain was doing was actually really trying to be a good friend and how he went about it was weird and heavy handed and and kind of gross. But surely was someone that Jack would like. Yeah, and I. I looked it up cause, uh, you know, I'm, I'm, I work in financial media and I was like, so how much is $20 from in the 1940s? It's a $300. Oh, wow, so, um, and then that the, the $12 for the uh, um, the Anubis um ritual, is 180.
Speaker 2:Oh so it's real money, real money, yeah, which makes sense, and I'm you, you know can we talk about the anubis?
Speaker 3:yes, it is bizarre to me that the wiener king or whatever he was, prince thought that like this ancient egyptian thing would work on for lilith's ring. Like they're two different mythologies.
Speaker 2:She's not known to be wait, so it's what would they call Did they call it the ring of Lilith.
Speaker 3:Ring of Lilith, okay, hmm, I mean they, they were saying they. I mean she went by Lily Rose but they called it the ring of Lilith. And, um, cause, cause that. I mean she went by Lily Rose but they called it the Ring of Lilith. And because that's what DB Woodside, as Melvin the Magnificent, is like, do you have a Ring of Lilith? Because I have many customers who would pay for a passing ring. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they called it the Ring of Lilith. But then they were doing this ancient Egyptian which is like, if I'm overthinking it, it is an interesting statement about human mythology, all actually sort of like in a bahá'í kind of way, like the bahá'í faith believes that we all are actually talking about the same god. God just reveals themselves differently to different people. Um, in that sort of like idea of cosmology well, I, I do feel like it.
Speaker 2:Also, it fits with a very american othering of of any culture that is that they aren't familiar with. So, like the oh gosh, when was tutankhamen's? Uh, in the 20s, it was the 20s, yeah, wasn't it? So? Yeah, I think that's right.
Speaker 3:So egypt was like I'm sure still like wow, this is really cool and big and let's unwrap a mummy and and right right, and 20 years later, yeah, yeah yeah, and so that would be an orientalism of the time and yeah, yes, yeah um, in the same way, white people would like unwrap a mummy and like make tea out of the dressing yes, well, and they'd have parties where they'd like.
Speaker 2:Which?
Speaker 3:is wrong with us.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I know well, and it's yeah, yeah, um, even the idea like, let's look at somebody's body like I know it's a grave.
Speaker 3:I like yeah, but but don't worry, it's a foreign body, it's not real.
Speaker 2:It's not one of us, aunt margaret. It does remind me a little bit of, if you remember, movies in the 1990s seemed to think that computers were magic. I feel like in our imagination we as humans like latch on to something, like, oh, that's something I don't understand, so it must be able to do anything I can think of. And so you know, we lived through the magic of computers in the 1990s where we just like, yes, two boys, could you know, put in pictures of hot women into a computer and it will manifest. What is that? One thing, kelly LeBrock, the word science was in the actual title of that movie. The word science was in the actual title of that movie, which, okay, that I think they knew. Like, okay, yeah, this is just ridiculous. We just want to.
Speaker 3:I think that was sort of like Hot Tub Time Machine.
Speaker 2:Yes, However, so that was ridiculous. However, the movie Sneakers. Do you have any memory of that movie? I do, because the first date I ever went on was to see Sneakers. Hey, jared, if you're watching, so in that film.
Speaker 2:They are trying to break into something and they recognition, voice recognition saying a specific phrase like my, my voice is my passport, or something like that. And so they have. Uh, there's the, the one. One woman in the uh, the heist group go on a date with the guy whose voice they need claiming. Uh, like they hack into a computer dating site and you know she's trying to get him to say all those words, get him to say all those words.
Speaker 2:And then at some point things go wrong and they end up seeing the guy's boss and the guy's boss is like oh wow, you guys are on a date. And he's like yeah, this is you know. Computer dating set us together. And the guy's boss is like there is no way, that would happen. And at the time it's just like oh no, they've been caught, they've been made. And like now I'm like what? So that's what I mean. Like where? Like computers are magic.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, or like you remember, war games with Matt Broderick. Yes, it's like the computer.
Speaker 2:I mean like maybe ai today maybe, but even then there'd be so many fail-safes yeah, yeah, yeah so to bring it back to lucifer, um human imagination always latches on to whatever newest in the in the zeitgeist.
Speaker 3:Right as like. So in that sense, the, the Egyptian, the ancient Egyptian, fits. Hey, like historically, like, like nice research. Yeah, yeah On the part of the writers. Yeah, I guess so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so but, and like it's one of the things that I find interesting too in that, uh, once you've lived through this once or twice I have I struggle to understand the people who don't recognize it when it happens again. And I'm looking right at you Bitcoin and NFT bros, um, now the ones who are like 20, I'm like, okay, I'll give it to you. You haven't lived through this, it's your first time through. It's your first time, but please remember this this will not solve war and poverty and fix the pipes in Flint, michigan, which are all things people have claimed Bitcoin will do.
Speaker 3:Right right.
Speaker 2:So anyway, but even the 20-somethings. Can you just stop for a second and think about, like does this really fit? Yeah, so can you. Can you like you've got a Bitcoin? B question mark C everything fixed.
Speaker 3:It's like that old far side where, like he's doing like a math proof, and then it says and then a miracle happens. Yes, all right, I'm going to bring us back, because we've been talking for a while. We did have a couple of hiccups, but we still. We've been on for a long minute. So I think I'm going to ask us, unless you have anything else substantive.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think I have any any other substantive. I just could you know, appreciation post for, for it never ends well for the chicken.
Speaker 3:Uh well, let's do some fluff, let's do some fluff. So my fluff, my appreciation post from and fluff from from, never ends. Well, for the chicken is Leslie and Brant's like upper chest and they follow Taj. Like her, her collarbones and like her skin is like perfect and I know she gets black and white and she's a professional actor and she had professional makeup artists there but like it was like like silk over over collarbones and I just was like and her neck like it was all just like like the woman has never had skin tag.
Speaker 3:Wow, I know Like, and she's wearing that dress that comes really, really low, so she's like. So you see, like a big expanse of it and it's just she is just amazing. Yeah, so that's my, my fluff. I just was like, yeah, really like mesmerized by just how gorgeous her skin.
Speaker 2:And those dresses are just amazing.
Speaker 3:Also Rachel Harris's hair. Oh gosh as Gertie.
Speaker 2:Yes, awesome, I love her, I love it. The dress she's wearing, too, is amazing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a Chinese style.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. Yeah, awesome, she glows yeah.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, that's pretty great, that's pretty great.
Speaker 2:My fluff is. Both Tom Ellis and Lauren German look hot as hell in 1940 suits. They do yeah.
Speaker 3:I mean like yeah, lauren German pulls off the the sort of androgynous look really really well, she, she, yeah, she rocked it, she rocked it, she really rocked it.
Speaker 2:You and I have talked about how we're not necessarily fans of her acting choices, but she sold the Jack character.
Speaker 3:I think so too. Yeah, I believed her as Jack. I kind of, yeah, I kind of I lost track of the fact that it was Lauren German, exactly.
Speaker 2:And so I have sometimes wondered if maybe just the things that we don't like about her acting is not a lack of skill. It's just the choices. Maybe yeah, so or or or possibly bad direction.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, not for editing director for her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, or possibly bad direction, or not, for editing director for her. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a. That's a good point, cause I, I, all, I felt the same way their chemistry, jack.
Speaker 2:Jack and and and Lucifer's chemistry was also. It was nice. I appreciated it. Yeah, it was very different from their chemistry. Is Chloe and Lucifer? Yeah, but yeah, it was very different from their chemistry as Chloe and Lucifer, but it was still just very enjoyable.
Speaker 3:Yeah, agreed, agreed. Another piece of fluff at the end of Diablo, when the actress who plays Christy Dancer is like complaining, like I don't want to stay here, where my main prop is a stripper pole, and then they start tussling and then it's actually Chloe who uses the stripper pole to then they start tussling and then it's actually chloe who uses the stripper pole to take her down, and I thought that was a really nice sort of turnabout, that, like, even the stripper pole is a, you know, a powerful tool for doing what you need to do. We're not in the objectification of, uh, of the dancer.
Speaker 3:I thought that was really like it was subtle, yeah yeah I thought that was a nice little like commentary of some of some sort I don't know exactly what, but yeah, but I like I like yeah, no it was also sort of meta, the thing.
Speaker 3:You know, the character played, the decker character, was saying I don't want to use this as a prop. And then decker uses it as a prop, like there's some I don't know I I like, oh, I didn't notice it on in the first time, but on rewatch for to talk to you, I was like, oh, chloe used this triple like kicker, yeah well, you know it.
Speaker 2:Also, there's something kind of cool about, I feel, feel like it's um, I mean, the show in general is uh, very non, uh nonjudgmental about um, sex work, um, and it was like making it clear like this isn't, this doesn't have to be disempowering, and in the same way, like in the second episode, shirley never feels like she has to apologize for her profession. It's just the fact that Jack didn't know, you know, and so so I like I appreciated that too, and like, in talking about it, it's not so much that Jack still describes her as the best thing that ever happened to him, it's not that it's not that, no, and it's actually it is.
Speaker 3:You're exactly right. It's that he didn't know. It's not that she used to be a call girl, because he says the best thing, that the best thing that ever happened to you, was based on a lie. Yes, yeah, so it's not the best thing that ever happened to you. Turns out to be dirty, yes, which is, I think, another way that it could have been written.
Speaker 2:Could have been written. Yeah, and even like I mean, Jack doesn't like it when Lucifer is like, oh, think of all the firemen and all of that like that. But that's more of the like. That's my wife you're talking about. Please stop, you know, rather than like ew, it's more just like I just don't want to think about that because I don't want to think about, you know, the person I love in situations like that, rather than like she's a bad person or anything like that. Right, Kevin, Alejandro, oh man.
Speaker 2:He did such a good job so good Cause he's such a goober here and like that man is like, remarkably handsome. He's very handsome, but not in this episode.
Speaker 3:I mean, they do that on purpose, I know like parted down the middle and the hair and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and and his like I'm too rich to go to. Yeah, he did a great job, oh my goodness. It also felt like he was having fun which I appreciate.
Speaker 2:I love it when you can tell someone to like I feel like Amy Garcia was having fun too Agreed. Agreed Also like when he gets shot in the foot and he goes down and he goes my stomach.
Speaker 3:And the way he screams. Yeah, it's pretty great.
Speaker 2:Oh, and the, the, the line of like. There's something you remind me of.
Speaker 3:I can't put fear on a shower, but French. I thought that was silly, that was just fan service.
Speaker 2:It was just fan service, that was just silly, but it was fun fan service and I'll take it.
Speaker 3:So but All right. Well, I'm not going to say I'll see you next week, because who knows when?
Speaker 1:we'll get to this again, but I will see you next time but I will see you next time.
Speaker 1:Yes, Happy birthday, Thank you. Our theme song is feral angel waltz by Kevin McLeod from incompetentcom, licensed under creative commons by attribution 4.0 license. Visit the show notes for the URL. I am an artificially generated voice powered powered by Narrakeepcom. Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix. Tracy and Emily are not affiliated with Fox, Netflix nor WB. If you liked this episode, subscribe to keep overthinking with them and visit the show notes for other ways to connect.