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Lightbringers: Illuminating the Deeper Meaning of the Crime-solving Devil TV Show
Tracie and Emily are two sisters who really love the show Lucifer. We're rewatching the series two episodes at a time and taking the time to illuminate the deeper meaning of the crime-solving devil tv show. Yes, we are overthinking it.
WARNING: There are definitely spoilers. If you haven't watched the whole series (all 6 seasons), listen at your own risk!
Lightbringers: Illuminating the Deeper Meaning of the Crime-solving Devil TV Show
Lucifer 515 + 516 “Is This Really How It’s Going to End” & “We Could Have Had a Happy Ending”
These two final episodes of season five pack and emotional wallup. With more than one major character death (though 2 don’t stay dead), the Guy girls both admit to shedding some tears, even in rewatch.
The views we get of both Heaven and Hell have Emily and Tracie thinking deeply about the nature of punishment, the compatibility of justice with pain, and whether or not free will is worth the huge risk we face to have it.
We help each other with head canon around why Michael behaves the way he does, how Lee managed to get out of Hell, and what’s going on for Chloe when she confesses to no longer feeling guilty on her death bed.
As we often do, we speculate a bit around alternative storytelling paths the showrunners might have taken, and unlike our sometime-dissatisfaction with Lauren German, both sisters agree the actress rose to the occasion in this season.
Our theme song is "Feral Angel Waltz" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
To learn more about Tracie and Emily and our other projects, to support us, and join the Guy Girls' family, visit us on Patreon.
Tracy and Emily are smart, lovable sisters who really love Lucifer for the plot yeah, the plot which they overthink.
Speaker 2:Hi there. I'm here with my sister, Tracy Guy-Decker, who does use a hyphen.
Speaker 3:Yep, and I'm here with my sister Emily Guy-Burken. No hyphen.
Speaker 2:And together we are Lightbringers where we illuminate the deeper meaning of the Crime Solving Devil TV show, and today we're going to be illuminating episodes 515 and 516. Is this really how it's going to end and a chance at a happy ending? In other words, the last two episodes of season five and yeah boy, they're grim.
Speaker 3:Yeah, these two are brutal and actually, before we even get started, I have to make a correction because in our last episode I complained a little bit about some dialogue that actually was not from 513 and 514. It's from 515. So listeners who pointed it out to me, thank you for your eagle eyes. I really appreciate it. You're right. As I mentioned in the last episode, I kind of got mixed up and watched 515 when I was supposed to be watching 514. Anyway, so correction made and let's talk about these two. We should, we try to like, stay chronological. So 515 is this really how it's going to end? Where we lose dan whoo? It's a rough one.
Speaker 2:it's a rough one it's rough because I've seen these before, you know I I know it's coming and so I know now that it was intentional. But I remember, on the first watch through, while he's playing Unstable Unicorns with Trixie, I remember thinking like, oh yeah, we haven't really seen him interacting like you know, just being a dad with Trixie and how much I appreciated it and I liked it and, of course, like you know, immediately pull the rug out from under you. There's a reason why they have that in this episode and presumably, like this is going on all the time. This is just you know, you just happen to see it in this episode. You know you want to believe that because of all the things that he doesn't feel confident about, he knows he's a good dad and the and the, the like.
Speaker 3:all right, I'll let you wear my glitter scarf, but you have to wear it. Wear it. Yeah, it's adorable. Yeah, you know watching it again too, and and I watched it again again, since I watched it for our last, for our last recording there were some some things that, like I guess you're right, there was an intentional like we witnessed him being a good dad, and actually I think there was a moment where, right before he's captured, where we witnessed him being a good cop, because even in the like, the rewatch and the rewatch and the rewatch, like, I was actually looking for what were the clues that the woman in the house who comes to the door like what? What clues did he pick up on? That it might be a possible home invasion, and I I didn't see it. And so I think that I think you're not supposed to. I think that's kind of the point is that he's a good cop.
Speaker 3:He's got that situational awareness, he's got that situational awareness and somehow like notice the sort of the tiny things, the micro clues that the woman was putting off, you know, with the gun to her head. So I think that that was another you know sort of setting up for us, like reminding us of Dan, not just the goofball but actually like competent dan, which I think was important for in this episode.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah well, and the the fact that he knew, like he held on to say caleb to chloe and he knew the significance of it. I don't know that he knew what it meant, but knew that it was something significant and that it needed to be shared and that Chloe would figure it out and him fighting back his competence and going I'm so tired, I'm so tired with his head down. So the guy comes closer to hear what he's saying and then he headbutts him and I think he manages to kill that guy so tired. Is that what he said? I only the only reason I know is because I had subtitles on oh.
Speaker 3:I thought, oh, okay, that's smart.
Speaker 2:I thought he said you're gonna die and like the thing is I, the first time I watched it I couldn't hear what he was saying. It was just, it sounded like whispering, and and so it was only because I had the subtitles on. And you know you, you put those together and you like, oh, okay, yeah, I hear what he's saying, but he was just saying something just to get him to come closer.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was all like very, very impressive.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, and very, very impressive, yeah, yeah. And that's another moment where you get the rug pulled out from under you with dan, because you think he's gonna make it when he defeats the guy who's been assigned to kill him. You really, for a moment, you think he's gonna make it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it's brutal it really is the scene in the hospital when Trixie comes in. Oh my gosh, I remember when this season came out and I remember watching it and like just tears and so, knowing it was coming, I was thinking I would be okay. But no, yeah me neither. I was really really crying.
Speaker 3:There's something very powerful about the exchange between Trixie and Lucifer, who is almost never just sincere and heartfelt. Yes, Certainly not with Trixie. So the my dear sweet child like that.
Speaker 2:that's when I started crying when, when Ellis delivered those lines yeah, I also I want to highlight the when they're trying to find lamech and I can't remember I think it's before they found dan, so they don't. They don't know if he's alive or not, and maze like, first of all maze comes in. Who took dan? I'm going to find them right now. And then you know Lucifer's like you know who's good at finding criminals, other criminals Like I've gave you know favors. She's like what should I call in? And he's like all of them, yeah. And so that makes it so clear how important Dan is that? And Amenadiel saying at the funeral.
Speaker 3:He was and will always be my best friend. I think in particular the calling in all of the favors helps to underscore your point from several episodes ago, the Daniel Espinoza, naked and afraid. So my recollection of your kind of take on that on that episode was the you know how much Dan actually matters to him, that he went through so much trouble to do the prank, that you know the very elaborate prank, that he went to so much trouble, so much money, so much effort that that was kind of evidence of Lucifer's actual regard for Dan, which to be honest I just find unsatisfying in that episode. And now here we are several episodes later and we hear him saying call in all the favors, like whatever it takes to find Dan, which I think actually does bolster your take on what was going on in that previous episode about the importance of the relationship between these two men, so or man and celestial.
Speaker 2:So I think that validates your point from from that episode yeah, yeah, I was just thinking how cavalierly he says call them all in, because that's something where it's not that he doesn't call in favors, but but they're currency.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they are a currency for him and yeah, it's how he operates.
Speaker 2:It is his you know income of a sort, and and so to call them all in, yeah, yeah, it's a big deal, yeah so I do have a question plot wise, which I know just in terms of where the story goes in season six why didn't Maze and Lucifer kill Lamech when they found him?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that the explanation comes later, because they kill all his henchmen. Yes, and then Lucifer whispers something to him, which we don't know what it is, although it's interesting you mentioning Dan whispering, like there's sort of an interesting mirroring between the two whispers. But yeah, what? Where are you going with this?
Speaker 2:So I have read and I believe it, whether I but I'm not sure if I'm looking for the pattern or not, but I've read people's theories saying that what Lucifer whispers into Lamech's ears is he was my friend and watching it this time with that in mind. It looked like that. That was what he said. I might be wrong. You know, it's one of those things where don't we don't.
Speaker 3:We hear in season six. I don't, I don't think so. But because lamech like wants to punish lucifer the way that lucifer punished him like and like, and lamex I I guess maybe like seeing the red eyes and hearing that that might strike fear, but because Lamex response, his face is sort of tortured.
Speaker 2:So and honestly I season six is the only season I've I have. Just I've watched only once yeah, me too, and I binged it and I don't remember details yeah, we're gonna get there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we're gonna get there, we're gonna get there. So, yeah, I mean the. The implication, even just within what we have here, is that there is whatever he whispered, you know, whatever like satanic incantation. The devil whispered in his ear was somehow itself punishing. But but, yeah, I, I don't have a. There's no clear answer from what we've been given at this point, yeah, at this point, yeah, so, okay, I have some continuity, things like within the whole story arc which we've talked about before. But here they are again the feather this isn't it's in the second episode, but the feather Remy's feather they bring to Ella, for, you know, for sleuthing. In the first season we were given angel feathers as, like themselves, miraculous and magical. You know, like maze uses one of lucifer's feathers that she had kept in order to heal a menediel who's been cut badly with a demon blade and she just like presses it on him and lights up the entire city yeah, yeah and, and here we are just like playing with this feather, like it's an emu feather, yeah, and like we just forgot.
Speaker 3:We just forgot the best, which it bothers me a little bit, because I feel like they created some beautiful kind of rules that now it's not even that they're breaking them. I feel like they just forgot that they exist. So I found that a little bit bothersome. On the other hand, you know, we have Ella in the same series of scenes, like right adjacent to her, thinking it's an emu feather, talking to God and saying like it's almost like you're not up there anymore, and asking for a sign which is immediately granted. When Chloe walks in the door and says you know, ella says please, I need a sign that I'm in the right place, and Chloe immediately walks through the door and says Ella, thank God, you're here. So which Ella recognizes as the sign that it is. So there's. So there's sort of an interesting kind of back and forth around a question. It's a question with mixed messages for the answer about what divinity is and how it interacts with humans.
Speaker 2:So in that second episode there's a moment where Amenadiel and Linda are with Charlie and Linda is being a very overprotective mom because Charlie, every time he stands he falls down and Amenadiel is more amused than anything else. I mean, like this is how you learn. You know, this is how humans learn they need to get up and fall down, and getting up after having fallen down is the most empowering thing possible. And then there is this when they bury Remy, there is a similar moment where he's recognizing that's what God, as a parent, did, which is give everyone free will so that they could fall down and get up again, even if it meant things like his children would die. And I like, on the one hand, I find that very beautiful, on the other hand, I struggle with it because the stakes are so high. But then again, that's true, I mean even with, with, with babies.
Speaker 2:You know, like a friend of mine was talking about recently. She's a four-year-old who got away from her in the parking lot and and went tearing off and she was very lucky that there was a like a car stopped in time and and all of that scared her to death and so like that doesn't mean she shouldn't have talked a lot. You know, not that you teach, but you know what I mean. So I mean, the stakes are that high. It just whew, it feels so potentially ugly.
Speaker 2:You know that he created, you know, just looking at the angels and like Michael is so craven and needing of power. But that's his choice, like he's choosing to be that way. He could be another way and I don't know. It gets into some deep stuff and is the reason why I like the show, even when I am less satisfied with this era of the show than I am with the first four seasons. I'd say In part because I feel like you talk about dramatic irony quite a bit, and when the viewers in Lucifer are the only ones who know that he's actually the devil, well, lucifer and the Celestials, there's something more satisfying about that than when everyone's in on it. But bringing up these questions of like in on it but you know, bringing up these questions of like is it's more loving to allow your children to be who they are, even if it leads to disaster, than to impose your will on them. And like, well, you put it that way, yes, but oh, my goodness, like. But couldn't there be guardrails?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, you know, yeah, um, let's talk about, let's actually talk about michael. You just brought him up, um, and how craven he is. It's really interesting michael, in these two episodes, because he is like, he's just kind of awful, you know, like lucifer is unable to bring himself to kill t the fence, and then Michael does it without even thinking he kills their sister Remy. He's just kind of awful, he kills Chloe, and then we have a moment where he seems to not exactly regret it, but there does seem to be some sympathy that he's having for Lucifer in that moment, seem to be some sympathy that he's having for lucifer in that moment he doesn't attack lucifer while lucifer is mourning, which is sort of what the craven guy that we've been seeing would have done.
Speaker 3:Yeah, instead he's sort of like you should have taken the deal, because now you'll never see her again, and there does seem to be some genuine it's not remorse but but sympathy for the devil.
Speaker 2:To coin a phrase.
Speaker 3:And then when she wakes up after he gives her the ring and chooses her in heaven and he says I can't believe he did it, I can't believe he brought you back Only for me to kill you again. And it's like I don't.
Speaker 2:I have a theory. I'd love to hear it. So my theory is that Michael is Lucifer's shadow, he is his other half and so, seeing his twin having that kind of anguish, he feels something for his twin that he can't feel even for his brothers and sisters. But he very clearly has no regard for humans and he doesn't actually care about chloe. And now that I can't believe he did it, he believes lucifer's destroyed right so why?
Speaker 2:there's no reason. So why? Why let her live? So that would be my, my take on that. And there is something like like it feels like everything he does is in reaction to lucifer. No, we're not twins.
Speaker 2:I'm the younger sibling and I feel, I feel the the like comparison's not the right word, because people didn't like this was not anything you ever did. Uh, this was more just the expectations of like family and society and stuff like that. The best example of this is neither of us had a bat mitzvah when we were 13. You decided in your 20s that you wanted to have a bat mitzvah, so you were a bat mitzvahed as an adult. The whole family came.
Speaker 2:It was lovely and at the reception, every single member of our extended family turned to me and said so when are you going to do it? And never Now. I can't Thank you. You've made it impossible. So and like I know that that like, as it was happening, I knew it was irrational, but at the same time, like I did not want my choices to be compared to your choices and my choices to look like you know, trailing after, like hey, wait for me. And so I can comprehend somewhat what Michael is doing and his willingness to sacrifice so much, in part because he is very specifically setting himself separate from his brother.
Speaker 3:I hear that. All right, I want to talk about hell and the throne. This is another one that, like you pointed out, when Lilith dies and then we're told that hell doesn't need a keeper, like you were anticipating that because Lilith was going to rule over her children down there. Anticipating that because Lilith was going to rule over her children down there, and I think that would have been beautiful, and instead it's just this sort of like I mean, you can rule if you want to, right, like even talking about Maze going to be the queen, the Mazza queen. It's just, it feels like a missed opportunity for a much neater, a much neater narrative element.
Speaker 2:Well, and it could have been really interesting, also with the fact that Maze would have known she'd have to depose her own mother, and that could have been really juicy interesting stuff, considering how complicated their relationship is. Yeah, and so would she be excited to depose her own mother, I mean like she'd claim to be, but would she then like hesitate, and I mean there'd be so much, there'd be so much that I think would be, it would have been very rich. But instead it's this like hand wave, like god said.
Speaker 3:it's okay um yeah, yeah, but then there's still hand wave, Like God said, it's okay. Um, yeah, yeah, but then there's still there's still talk about who's going to rule. It's just it. Obviously it didn't interest the writer's room that much because they just let it, let it lie, yeah, but I think it could. It could have been really, really interesting and it it. It bothers me a little that we didn't have more structure around the question. So that's just something that like comes up for me when you know, when maze is dressed as a bony xylophone.
Speaker 2:Oh, my goodness. Well, okay, speaking of hell, let's let's talk about heaven. I had forgotten that, mr Soda. I it's not that I'd forgotten, I just didn't remember where in these episodes it happened. And so when I saw Jeremiah Burkett's name, I was very excited. So we learned that he has figured out a way out of hell to get to heaven. He's the first soul to ever do that, and it's because he took Lucifer's advice.
Speaker 2:And just for one thing, a part of me is just teary-eyed at the idea that Lee not only gets peace, he gets paradise. He had suffered so much over something that he didn't need to because his sister adored him. He didn't need to because his, his sister adored him, even as she despaired over him. I'm actually I'm getting teary-eyed about this fictional character. And then the fact that he recognizes lucifer's part in that and is like I want to help you because you helped me, and like is just, but he's still himself like, he's like. So says the guy who just fell out of the sky. You know, there's still lee there, he's still got that right sense of humor, he's still.
Speaker 2:And then the moment that had me like squealing with excitement, when this first air, or when I first watched.
Speaker 2:It was when Lee says I don't know what the fork is happening, because that is very clearly referenced to the good place, the show with Ted Danson and Kristen Bell, which we both also love. Yeah, and I had for a long time felt like these shows were in conversation with each other, because they both have a similar view of what makes something hell. It's, you know, you are torturing yourself and it's because of it's not explicitly guilt in a good place, but it is more that it's human nature and so for. For the showrunners, the writers because it's joan ildy who wrote that episode to make it clear that they also appreciate the good place and they also see it as grappling with these kind of big issues and big questions was just really exciting. I really was. Was was excited to see that and it feels like, because it's a different show, heaven in Lucifer is actually heaven, whereas we found out in the Good Place it's still imperfect, the system still is not quite right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, you know, thinking about hell and like how people are tortured. One of the things that I'm sort of trying to wrap my mind around is the fact. I mean, we know that souls are tortured by their guilt, the demons make it happen, but when we have been in hell before, the hell loops we've seen have mainly been people's sort of death, right like what has led to their death, although maze tells us, I think, in the episode before that, these two, that she knows now that she has a soul, when she dies it'll go to hell and her, her siblings will torture her with that hospital room where she walked away from eve. I'm just thinking about like the lack of alignment there and even with right, like even with lee.
Speaker 3:Lee was reliving the day of his death on the boat, on the fascism boat, you know, in his hell loop, but what he was actually guilty, feeling guilty about, was that not going into his sister's data shower. So, like I'm, and like they've made it clear, they've said that the souls are not, most of the doors are not even locked and that the souls could leave at any time. We have discussed, I think even on the show, the fact that we do see some locked in our head. Canon from you I'm pretty sure is that those are the torture cells of psychopaths and sociopaths who don't feel guilt, yeah, but still still belong in hell. So they actually do have chains and locks, but for the average human, their guilt keeps them so and and yet it's a death based loop. That may or may not have anything to do with which we'll see actually in season six with when we hear from Dan about Dan's experience.
Speaker 2:So, specifically for Lee, I wonder if his hell loop is in part like about even on that. Like that, his things are going great, he has a yacht, everything's wonderful. There's still a big part of them, him, that feels guilty that he doesn't are going great. He has a yacht, everything's wonderful. There's still a big part of him that feels guilty that he doesn't have a sister, that he walked away from her, and so the hell loop is not the specific day because he dissociates from that, like he can't even like look at it. His hell loop is when he's on top of the world. It's still not enough and he immediately dies that's nice.
Speaker 3:That's nice. How does he get back to the door? That was the one that he needed to go through? Well, how does he? How does he break out of that death?
Speaker 2:well, once I think once he's been with lucifer and been through like they were trying to solve his murder. Um, like he can move he can move.
Speaker 3:He can move a little more freely?
Speaker 2:um, because he has a? Um, and I was under the impression although I don't remember what he says, but that he might have just like sat in front of that door for however long it took before he could walk in.
Speaker 2:So he might not have even gone back to other aspects, other places in hell. He might have just sat there and sat there and sat there and finally said he's right, I need to go in, yeah, yeah, maybe and, like you know, the demons wouldn't have kept an eye on him or anything like that Cause, like no one ever leaves Right, so why do we need to wait? He'll come back to his regular hell loop eventually, okay, maybe.
Speaker 3:So it was also interesting that lee tells lucifer like, yeah, this is heaven, um, or at least one of its rooms. I'm still getting the lay of the land. So that was useful, that was useful exposition. And also I was like, how does does Lee know that Chloe's here? Because Lucifer says I need to get to the detective and Lee says, yeah, she's here, he knows exactly where she is. And like, does every resident of heaven know where every other resident is? That's a lot of people. That's a lot of people Presumably Well, we don't know. Well, according to the Good Place, it's actually not that many anyway, those were a couple of the things that were like while I was watching. I was like, okay, so devil goes to heaven, don't overthink it. I, I, it makes sense, don't overthink it.
Speaker 2:I I'm happy to hand wave that. The thing that got me was when Michael says, oh, you're going to go up to heaven and immediately burn up because you've been banished. And he was like okay, this is the first we've heard of it.
Speaker 3:Well, he does say he can't go back.
Speaker 2:Oh many times. And it's just like what kept him out was never explained to be something physical that would happen to him. But even that I'll give it's just there's. The seams are showing a little bit more. Yeah, that's part of why I'm not as satisfied by these seasons, even though I found myself so.
Speaker 2:I really appreciated that metaphor about like parents allowing their children to fail Uh-huh, and I also really appreciated Lucifer's conversation with Linda where he's like the system is broken, it's unjust and it's interesting because he's talking about life, but I can't help but feel like he's also talking about criminal justice system. He uses the word system and unjust. I recently saw there's a YouTuber I like he's an ex-evangelical and so he talks about the ways that evangelical culture affects the culture as a whole and one of the things he talked about recently was the appearance of Satan imagery and he was talking about the show Lucifer. He's like I have friends who really love it, but I just could not get over the fantasy of cops being good and I actually I have had that.
Speaker 2:We've talked before about how this show is, copaganda and our very mixed feelings about it.
Speaker 2:A story I read recently about the LAPD and I can't even remember what horror it was because there have been so many made me feel like, oh my goodness, this is so. There's this disconnect between the show that I adore that makes it clear that cops are the good guys and reality, and it was funny, but also true, that this YouTuber is saying like, yeah, the fantastical element I can't swallow is the idea that cops are good, not that, you know, the devil walks among us and falls in love, yeah, and so I feel like this does kind of set things up for for what we see in season six, and and and it's also interesting thinking about Amenadiel deciding to become a police officer, which I don't know. It feels like an odd decision, even though it leads to some really, really interesting conversational stuff, like in conversation with the lack of justice, in human justice that we we will get to in season six. But it's, it's, it's more propaganda in some ways, and that's, it's just it's, it's, it's painful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, it's deeply troubling.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But it also makes me so, taking Lucifer's rant at face value, that he is going to create a world without pain, and it is admirable and understandable why he's saying that. But Linda's absolutely right you cannot have joy without pain, right joy without pain. And trying to create a just system from the top down seems like a recipe for fascism. A just system has to come from the bottom up, I think, and without trying to control for things being painful.
Speaker 3:It's an interesting juxtaposition too, because I think the presence of justice does not require the complete absence of pain. I think, yeah Right, it requires the appropriate responses to pain, it requires not causing pain disproportionately to people because of their identity, you know like but but justice is not the absence of pain. Yeah, presumably there will be less pain in a more just world, but not no pain, yeah, so that's a sort of an interesting conversation there that you're noticing, because he, he is at face value talking about life, but he does use the word justice, that or you know there's no justice or it's not just, or something like that. So, yeah, that's an interesting and you know, linda's response is actually not about justice, it's about pain.
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, and suffering, and it does in some ways feel like Lucifer has a sense of justice. Well, so at the end of the last episode, because Michael has said it's to the death and Lucifer agrees, and had Michael won, he would have killed his brother. Had Michael won, he would have killed his brother. But Lucifer, by cutting off his wings, he meets out a consequence, but it's a just consequence, it's not an over.
Speaker 3:I mean, I don't know, I don't know if it's just or not. It's not death, it's not death. Yeah, you know, that scene actually is really interesting because michael meals, like earlier, michael had the flaming sword and blister punched him in the face. So, like the possession of the sword is not enough to for the other to be required to surrender, I guess you know the shock of having him come back from the incineration, of going back to heaven. I don't know, I actually found that a curious moment. Yeah, that Michael surrendered basically.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was also curious when and here's another like they forgot the rules, so when, or maybe they didn't, but when Chloe has Michael on the ground and she's got Azrael's blade through his throat, he says do it, which I don't actually think that Michael would say, that I think he would try to weasel his way out of it and he would try to figure out what she was afraid of and use it and weaponize it. Afraid of, and and and use it and weaponize it. And in earlier episodes, when we, when we first met the blade welcome to stabby town. Like when humans held it, they went crazy. They were unable to control their violent impulses when they held the sword.
Speaker 2:So, but, dan, was able to to fight it off.
Speaker 3:Yes, you stole my pudding, it was labeled, although it was hard for him, though, yeah it was hard for him and his.
Speaker 2:His grievance with lucifer was much smaller than chloe's grievance with michael yeah, now chloe also was holding the peace, that's true.
Speaker 3:she's also got the strength, yeah, so maybe that's an explanation. Also, she's a special human since she was created by divine decree. Um, you know, so I can, I there are ways in which I can sort of offer explanations for that, but it did feel like a bit of a like I wish they'd said but I guess we didn't really have time I would have liked an official explanation. Like you had the strength to fight the swords you know pull because you were holding the piece. I don't know, I don't know, but I would have liked an official explanation of why Chloe was able to, you know, to fight the impulse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Um, you know I. As for why Michael Neal's? I think it's his realization that he doesn't have anything other than the sword. Like without the sword, he doesn't have anything to fight with, I guess. Or well, he doesn't have anything to fight for.
Speaker 3:You know, I guess I don't know he has all the. I mean, that's the thing too, like they kept talking about the swing votes, but I mean presumably we the thing too, like they kept talking about the swing votes, but I mean presumably we thought people would come with them, even if he'd gotten all three of them or all four of them, like the whole all of the siblings were behind Michael.
Speaker 2:Some of that has to do with they filmed during COVID, and so I think if this had not been filmed in 2020, or maybe it was 2021, I think we would have had a much larger group, and that's also why I think it was in the. They filmed it in the stadium.
Speaker 3:It was a Coliseum.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because if they like, if they filmed that many people in a room, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So, but even of the people that we had, there was Tzadkiel. That was it, and then the one unnamed sister, so we had met a couple of them that he was trying to lobby, like the one who, like the Iron Chef, tzadkiel yeah, sarah, he called her and then dophiel, who the bro, and sad kale. There were the only three. Oh yeah, there were the only three swing votes, so-called swing votes. I mean, are we to presume that other siblings would come if they, those three, had been convinced but they didn't? For tzadkiel, I would have thought the angel of righteousness would have, yeah, a few folks being like, oh well, if tzadkiel thinks that lucifer is the right one, um, like, I don't know, I I wish I'd seen a little bit more.
Speaker 3:It was funny. It was funny when lucifer, when sad kiel, makes this big thing and like one person comes over and then lucifer's like, oh, uh, oh, I thought that was gonna be a whole thing. Yeah, um, like that was funny, but I do sort of wish I'd seen a little bit more. I don't know, like struggling with it on the faces of the siblings or something. Yeah to, because how, how, how was, how was this? How was there ever a path to the throne for lucifer. If those were the only three possible, yeah ones he could change. And there were the 25, or however many there were, I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's confusing to me well, I wonder if, like some of it is like that's not all the angels, they're not all there. So there are other people who oh, you think they weren't.
Speaker 3:they weren't supposed to all be there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no, no, that's definitely not all the angels, oh, okay, well, because I mean Azrael wasn't there, so I mean there's.
Speaker 3:Well, yeah, so maybe presumably others who have jobs that they can't take a break from. Yeah, besides Azrael. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:And they would have been swayed by. But then, like, why aren't they there? I don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, this is one of those ones that, like the reason that they suggested it makes sense and don't overthink it. This is one of those ones that, on a little bit of scratching, you're like wait a minute, this whole storyline doesn't actually work. Yeah, yeah, so we've been talking for a while. Let's talk about the almost fan service of the moment of I choose you and then his, he disintegrates. Let's talk about that for a moment. Yeah, so he has told us that he, he's told Chloe, and thereby us, that he believes he is incapable of love. It's just not in his makeup to love, and he's been telling Todd Kiel and others that love is the reason that he wants to be God. So there's like that's sort of an interesting thing that, like he knows he loves her but he also thinks he's incapable of love. And then, facing his own erasure, it's, it's death, but it's different, you know, as he's like incinerating. They play it like it's painful. That's when he's able to actually tell her, which is for the fans, like finally, he said it.
Speaker 2:You know, I do have to say that kind of mirrors the, the, the moment when he tells chloe that the reason why he wants to be god is so he can be worthy of her, and her reaction feels appropriate oh, my god, yeah, um, like, are you kidding me? Yeah, yeah, are you kidding me?
Speaker 3:Oh for F sake, yeah, it's like yeah, um, yeah. And then you're telling me. You're telling me that Dan is dead, because you still don't know how I feel about you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I thought that was well-written and well-delivered. I believed it. Yeah, I believed it. Love her is, I think, what that really is. But I also am imagining if someone were like well, I'm taking this major job that's going to change everything about our lives, because otherwise there's no way that I would feel worthy of you. I'd be like don't put that on me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right, so that's the other aspect of it, although I mean, if he had told her before dan died, that probably would have been her response you know, it's interesting too when she says feel worthy, no, but this is better, this is better, make yourself vulnerable, because we're gonna see in season six, he actually does make himself vulnerable for rory at a later time. Um, so that's an interesting like set up there that he can't. I don't know where I'm going with that, just something that hurts me.
Speaker 2:No, it is, it is. And him, him telling her to like just stop feeling guilty. Like what's interesting is cause, when I watched these episodes the first time, when she says I, you know, I don't feel, I don't regret my choices, I choose this, I don't feel guilty, and like, so she's gotten over her guilt about Dan's death, which I don't feel like she got over it, specifically because she knows it's not his, it's not Lucifer's fault that she's dying.
Speaker 3:I think that's actually significant. It's not that she's just sort of come to terms with it, it's that now she is in a different, she's in a different place experientially. So she has now experienced she's going to die and she knows it is not Lucifer's fault. She knows in her heart that it is not Lucifer's fault. And then, by extension, by the transitive property, by the analogy, dan's choice, dan's death was not her fault.
Speaker 3:because, if I like dan's death is her fault, then her death is lucifer's fault, and she knows it's not. I like that, so I don't think it's just that she's like gotten over it I think it's actually the experience of have, of making the choice to stay in the fight and having michael kill her and knowing that lucifer lucifer's there saying it's my fault, like he's, he's holding, he's cradling her as she's bleeding. I like that.
Speaker 3:I actually think that that's why At least that's the way I read it and that actually makes a great deal of sense to me, oh it does.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that would allow her to sort of release that guilt. She forgives herself as she's forgiving Lucifer. I like that a lot. That's good. Yeah, I don't always love the storylines that give Chloe or the dialogue or the delivery, but I actually think that Lauren German did a good job with a very difficult task. After the point at which she knows and they get together, it is a really difficult task to act that and do it believably, and I actually think she rises to the occasion. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, these two episodes are really she's very well done on her part, especially. And there's a moment in the hospital when Trixie comes to say to Lucifer, tell me, tell me, it's not true. And you see her face like go, like completely ghastly, like oh God, and then she like falls over and like she's not even in focus, like the focus is on, is on Trixie, and it's like it's really it's really well done, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, so we've been talking for quite a while and I want to make sure that we have time to share if there's any fluff. These are not fluffy episodes. I've got one piece and I and I also want to very briefly sort of mention, sort of appreciation post for the twinning that they are able to do in these two episodes, with tom ellis playing both michael and lucifer so convincingly like I genuinely believe they're different people, yeah, and and the way that they said, like when they first confront one another in lux with the red light and the blue light behind them, which is really, I thought, really cool. I just really enjoyed that. And even, you know, lucifer cosplaying as Michael, which is really fun, you know, like Freaky Friday stuff, yeah, tom Ellis pretending to be Lucifer, pretending to be Michael, anyway, but there's, there was something really really nice about the twinning, particularly in these two episodes, which I'm sure is not as complicated to do as my brain tells me it is.
Speaker 3:But my brain is always just like how do they do that? It's the same actor. He's fighting himself, anyway, I know it's actually pretty straightforward. It just involves Tom Ellis acting it out twice and then post-production. Yeah, but it works. It really does. My brain is completely full. It's amazing, anyway, all right, let me hear your fluff. Now I have one piece of fluff.
Speaker 2:And that is the very final scene when, come up behind lucifer on the steps of the coliseum, a teeny, tiny little bald spot right there and I have to rewatch it. Oh my god, I noticed it the first time I watched. I was like I'm making that up, there's no way. And I remember rewinding. And no, there's definitely. And it might just be the way his hair is like is swirling, quaffed, yeah, but it's just like. You know it's, it's right there, there's. It's more than just a part. That's funny.
Speaker 2:I'm like all right well you know, there, there, there are consequences to you know, burning up in heaven.
Speaker 3:That's funny. That's funny, All right. So I have one that like. I think diehard fans of the show already know that Joe Henderson is one of the inmates. When they're demons, the head, the guy whose head gets cut off and the head goes sort of flying across the street.
Speaker 2:Oh, I didn't know that.
Speaker 3:That's Joe Henderson. Oh, no, the head, the guy whose head gets cut off and the head goes sort of flying across the street. I didn't know that joe henderson. Oh no, kidding. Okay, yeah, he's not in the bus in the first scene. Okay, I actually looked for him. I didn't see him in the bus in the first scene, but he's. He's one of the demon inmates in that fight scene, which is kind of cool and also I think it's really fascinating.
Speaker 3:They give the lilyim their own language right and it sounds like vaguely like Dutch or something. When she says brothers and sisters at my command and it's you know, it sounds like the right, like approximately the same number of syllables as English, but then when she says fight, it's like seven syllables, this long sentence, and then just the word fight subtitle, which I really loved. Like, like this long sentence, and then just the word fight subtitle, which I really love. Like and also like. From a linguistic point of view, like doesn't make sense to me that the Lillim would take a long time to say the word fight. I think the Lillim, it would be like it would just be a grunt, it wouldn't actually even be a word. Is it so fundamental, although maybe there are lots and lots of words for biting, like the proverbial Eskimo words for snow or something.
Speaker 3:I don't know Anyway.
Speaker 2:I have actually two more real quick ones. The first when Eve is meeting a blind date at Lux, Steve, Steve, and I'm like I feel like that is an intentional tweak at like the folks who are like it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, that's nice, I didn't I would never have picked that up. So that's the first one. My last piece of fluff is uh, does Lucifer lie when he's singing? Can't touch this.
Speaker 3:Oh, because he says. He says God must be doing yeah, so except Gabriel says it first. Okay, Right.
Speaker 3:Like he's singing, like they're doing their thing and and Gabriel's kind of dancing, and Michael gives her a look like he gives her a side eye and she's like must be God or must be father or something like that. I don't remember what word she uses. Must be God or must be father or something like that. I don't remember what word she uses. And then Lucifer kind of gloms onto that. But maybe you might be right, yeah, yeah, I don't know I I I'll have to watch that scene again with that question in mind. Yeah, I mean, isn't it lying when he dresses up as Michael?
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, like he we've already talked a little bit about how he he doesn't always tell the whole truth and and and all of that. It's a good question, but I don't know, I don't think. I don't think of a disguise as being the same as a lie, but yeah, I mean, there's definitely.
Speaker 3:I think even more so in the comic book which I haven't actually read. I just have read about, but the sort of not lying thing is very specific. Yeah, it's a very specific thing that he doesn't. He totally misleads all the time.
Speaker 2:Yeah I read one issue and had trouble getting into it, in part because he very much misleads the human that he interacts with to her detriment, without actually lying right, that's a really interesting question.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I have to. I, I really don't want to watch this episode again, but I might watch a couple of scenes, yeah, yeah, maybe watch that that scene and then look for his little bald spot. I have to. I really don't want to watch this episode again, but I might watch a couple of scenes again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Maybe watch that scene and then look for his little bald spot.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And honestly I feel like this whole, like this whole story arc of God retiring and needing to pick a new God, somebody in the writer's room was like we've got to do this so we can have Tom Ellisis say, oh my me, somebody was really, really, really committed to that punch line and that's why that's the entire reason for this entire season, five story arc that's, that's my, that's my hypothesis.
Speaker 3:That is now headcanon for me, I mean it is a really good, it's a great punchline, yeah, you know, when he holds this sort of oh my, it's really good, yeah, yeah, it's really, and it and it fits with the way he's talked throughout the series, where he would say like, oh, my dad, swear to dad. Yeah, yeah, all right. Well, unless you have something, uh, else that you absolutely must share, I'm going to say we have overthunk it enough for one day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think this has been quite an overthinking session.
Speaker 3:All right, well, I'll see you next time when we start season six. Woo, next time.
Speaker 1:Our theme song is Feral Angel Waltz by Kevin MacLeod from Incompetechcom, licensed under Creative Commons by Attribution 4.0 License. Visit the show notes for the URL. I am an artificially generated voice powered by Narrakeepcom. Lucifer is a Warner Brothers production that first aired on Fox and then Netflix. Tracy and Emily are not affiliated with Fox, netflix nor WB. If you liked this episode, subscribe to keep overthinking with them and visit the show notes for other ways to connect.